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Hello and welcome back to the Classics podcast. Today's guest, Jonathan Goddard, is a musician and educator.

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He brings hip hop to the classroom as teaching and learning director of the Latin programme and the executive director of Rap Teach.

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It's a pleasure to have you with us today, Jonathan. Just a general question to start.

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How do you think that music can connect us to the ancient world?

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Well, I think that music can connect us to any idea that we want to engage with in a way that

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unlocks the other part of the brain just the same way that story can or that art can.

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So music can allow us to subconsciously engage with an idea.

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So by engaging with a song, by listening to a song, you can you can allow for repetition.

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You can allow for all kinds of opportunities for your brain to wrestle with an idea in a different context.

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And I know in the classroom you combine creativity and also kinetics.

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How does that actually translate itself into when you're teaching and learning Latin?

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So I work for the Latin programme, which teaches roughly between 1215 hundred children a week, a week in,

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week out programme that we come into primary schools as specialists, teaching them modern foreign language.

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And in order to do that, we have to have a system, a curriculum that progresses and a curriculum that engages.

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Because often the children that we teach have not really got much of an understanding of what Latin is, even when we start.

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So primarily for us, using Kinaesthetic games,

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movement based activities can involve activities that help us learn particular and specific grammar points,

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such as a group of endings or the function of a particular case.

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Or they can be illustrative of the creativity the children have if they're acting out something that they may be written or they've devised,

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or it can also be something that helps us actually illustrate or bring to life

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a topic or a classical myth or story such as the film we made a while ago,

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which was the Aeneas project, which was a rap retelling of The Aeneid that was written in conjunction with our staff,

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our children, and was performed by about 300 children that we had premiered at the BFI.

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It was amazing. So cool. Oh, you seen it right! For yourself

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Was it music that was your first love or was it language? Do you know?

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I'd say the two were so intertwined for me language, because growing up I had the opportunity to learn Latin from quite a young age actually.

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So about a similar age to my students, like eight or nine.

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I didn't come to Latin quite so actually Latin and the other languages I was learning at that time,

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I learned French and Russian pretty much all at the same age eight, nine, ten.

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So languages were always part of what I was doing, and music was from my home life.

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My big brother was very well into hip hop and I was freestyling around that age, maybe ten or 11.

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So I guess I always sort of in my private moments, brought the two together.

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Like whenever I was studying,

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I was sort of finding little ways to make little rhymes out of tricky concepts or concepts that I wanted to keep with me.

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So that was always something I did. So I guess that's kind of the seeds of rap teach in that carried that through.

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So my A-levels basically, and then I sort of forgot about that up until A-levels I was before my exams,

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I remember little rhyming ways to myself with little cue cards or whatever, thinking, okay, that's that.

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And it helped me as somebody, I guess, whether you believe in these frameworks.

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But I think they use useful models of somebody who has a good auditory memory.

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It was a useful way for me to carry information.

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And did you ever imagine that it would be a way that you would share with other people, or did you do it with your friends?

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Did you try and teach them using your own methods that worked for you? No, I had no interest in doing that.

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It was purely selfish, so I never thought that it would be something that would be useful for anybody else.

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It can be like I've been a musician before and done shows in different contexts and seen things which

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I've come across and I've been like last kind of seek to use the phrase that young people use a bit.

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Cringe, isn't it, sometimes when you're bringing bridging those two tools?

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So I was like, okay, well, when I became a teacher and educator,

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I found that actually a lot of the useful tools that I had were the things that I could use to overlap with my students,

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whether that is knowledge of the same cultural material, whether that is interest in the same aspects of the material

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we're learning. So we're learning about a myth and it's the gore.

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Or if we're learning about gladiators and it's learning about the adulation they received and comparing that to a modern context.

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So when I thought, okay, well, embracing that moment,

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realising that if I have this ability to make rhymes of complex ish material and to simplify it, that's actually just a useful tool.

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So I didn't really think it was something that I would ever share with anybody else.

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until I became a teacher and teaching just like ideas.

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I'm sure lots of teachers might listen to this podcast or if people who,

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you know, recognise when their teachers are doing something that's effective.

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A teacher will use an effective tool in order to create their message and to craft the message

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and share it and disseminate it with their students in a way that resonates with them.

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When you were eight, nine, ten, and you were actually studying Latin, French and Russian, how did you find the links between all of those?

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The three Did you find that they complemented each other? Was that something you were aware of?

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At a young age of how language is linked together? Definitely.

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I'm somebody who likes to make connections between the things I learn, but I think there were obvious in terms of the French,

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the vocabulary, the linguistic structures, the tense system or right, the cases.

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The nouns are different. Fine, but you could see lots and lots of resonances between the Latin and the French.

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And that's something that, you know,

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I think is very useful when somebody is learning Latin in the context of it might be the second language they've come across.

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So that particularly in the UK school system where historically and traditionally

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we've been learning those romance languages first in terms of Russian.

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Yeah, the case system was, was the thing that resonated actually.

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Some of the vocabulary, some of the like high culture vocabulary, which had obviously come from maybe a French root,

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some of that resonated, but definitely like the grammatical structures or that that sort of thing.

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And now teaching in London schools, I have children from all over the world and it's really one of the greatest joys to see

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somebody come with no English in term 1 and term 2 they're sitting in on Latin lessons.

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And we're just doing very basic vocabulary connection by getting them to draw.

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They might play some of the games and then by term three or four,

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they're actually able to live with the Latin as well as they're living with the English in class.

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So it's kind of like, Oh, and that happens with children from Slavic languages, romance languages and backgrounds too.

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But like I see those the frameworks that they have already are easily transferable.

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And I suppose in that way Latin really is a leveller.

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If you're all coming at it with a clean slate, it's not something that you're probably speaking at home or having that previous knowledge of.

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So you're all starting from a similar point, despite everyone's backgrounds and own languages being so different.

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Yes, which means that actually it does allow sometimes children who might be struggling across the board or maybe

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not getting a chance to achieve because they haven't got the basis in English yet that everybody else has.

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It allows them a chance to excel in the classroom often.

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Also, it allows those who might might not have the most flowing and vivid English vocabulary to find a way to examine

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English and look at structures and look at where words have come from and develop their own understanding of English.

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Sometimes you find that that that obviously flows much better when it's in the context of myths.

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But even just examining them in the just linguistic sense, looking at the words where they come from,

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how they are derived and all those kinds of things is very useful.

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And the Latin programme's approach I suppose is slightly different from some other programmes and that does have a more grammatic focus.

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Do you feel that grammar is really at the heart of trying to understand the language but also the culture of that particular language and time?

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So personally I would say not necessarily no.

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I think it's it's a tool for the context that we work in.

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I think at the stage that the children are at, it's kind of like a mirror for, you know,

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like a prism for looking at syntax and grammar and understanding English as well.

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It reflects on what they're already grappling with in grammar, in English.

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So it reinforces that it's kind of a fundamentals course.

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They're learning about the building blocks of language in a way that supports

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their study of English and lays the groundwork for the study of other languages.

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I believe that actually if we were talking about the best way into a culture,

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it's it's the stories, it's the it's the human aspects that are the best way into the culture.

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But having said that, there are other there's other work to be done, if you see what I mean.

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So I get that we've we've taken over the years a variety of approaches,

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but I think over the past two or three years we've integrated a topic based approach at the same time maintaining the grammatical focus that we have.

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So the aim has been to to allow both sides of that task to happen without sacrificing the

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thing that the thing that really a lot of headteachers in particular tell us that they value,

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which is that we are supporting their understanding of language in that way in a transferrable and systematic way.

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And so you work predominantly with state schools in London at primary level.

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But I know you also have your annual summer school, which is sponsored by the Classical Association.

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Can you tell us a bit more about that and about ways in which young people can get involved with your work?

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Well, we have a range of projects that we've run.

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We've run and worked in partnership with arts spaces and museums and heritage spaces such as Leighton House to run part of the in-house provision.

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We run a summer school annually which runs for the past four or five years, which is a hybrid now hybrid offering of online and off offline,

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and it's a mix of arts practitioners, artists, dancers, poets,

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authors coming in and delivering sessions that have a linguistic base but also involve their art.

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So the children get to work with a theatre company that helps them devise games

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and short pieces that might have a springboard that comes from the Latin language.

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They get to work with.

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Caroline Lawrence has been a great supporter of us, who's obviously a former Latin teacher herself and an expert in the ancient world,

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and they get to engage with some aspects of the material that inspired her stories.

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But at the same time, learning some language dance sessions with which are inspired by the ancient world, these kinds of things.

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So in terms of our outreach work and of course we have language sessions that are part of that as well.

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And those are delivered in-person and online.

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Since as well as that, we've run various outreach activities in the past from working with local libraries.

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We've had in the past now like time storytelling, which was something it's been heartening actually.

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Some of the people that we see come through the summer schools year on year,

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or people who've come in via these other sort of entry points as well as our schools.

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So we do a variety of things, but the main activity of the Latin programme is working in primary schools.

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Key stage two we have work with Key Stage three and we do do GCSE as well, but mainly key stage two primary schools,

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often in areas or in schools where there are high marks of disadvantage or schools where there are lots

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of children with EAL and we've found success in helping to raise attainment and standards in doing that.

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It's brilliant work from a brilliant mission and I especially love that fusion

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of all of the different humanities that you're bringing together through dance,

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through creativity, through song, through music.

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And that, in a way, is at the heart of what classics and understanding the ancient world is all about.

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And these are very ancient concepts and ancient ways of education, too.

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I mean, to what extent do you think that oral poetry is the way in which the ancient Greeks transmitted their creativity?

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And which ways do you feel that that still has power today?

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And that's part of a legacy in a kind of longer tradition of both education and also entertainment and storytelling?

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Oh, well, I think that I think that's an interesting question because we've got to look at it in terms of for us now,

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we live in the age of self-expression.

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We live in the age where everybody has the right and the ability to express their feelings and have them heard and have them recorded.

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So actually, a lot of the time when we do, we go into using poetry and song.

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It's actually for the purposes of expression, of the knowledge that we've that our students have internalised.

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So it's like we've learnt about these things. Now how can we express them?

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Maybe there's a framework, maybe there's no framework.

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Obviously I have a channel where I make songs which are, you know, about bits of knowledge, describing bits of knowledge,

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grammar or a little bit of a myth or a little bit of history and that kind of song that's, I mean,

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that will resonate with a percentage of people who will then take that away and they'll learn it.

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And you know, they might use it in the classroom, the teacher might use it, they might use it, and it's a part of the memory of them.

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Learning lacks it.

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Like, it amazes me that the comments I get years down the line when somebody says they're in Wisconsin or there's somebody that I taught and they say,

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Oh, I love this our teacher used to hate this. He makes us listen to this, people.

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It's like, okay, this is part of your memory of your education.

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And obviously education is about the constant build up of steps towards learning.

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But it's about those moments where there's an emotional resonance or there's a, you know, a coming to consciousness about something you've learned.

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So yeah, that's another way that we use song.

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So obviously there's this, this expressive trance of what we're doing and people can use.

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I think that's valuable in and of itself, obviously expressing yourself,

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but obviously towards the ends of what we're trying to teach, that's how we've got to channel it.

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And then we have these other songs which are, you know, this is.

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a discrete piece of information and something, you know, like I've been doing this long enough now that I've had people that grown men approach me in the street,

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and then they'll sing a song back that they learnt in year five and oh, oh, I remember.

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Oh, great. You know that that's that's interesting.

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It's like, okay, well, that's stuck with you. What else is stuck with you?

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I can't probe you, as we stand here in a shopping centre. But, you know.

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It must be so nice to have that connection with people, as you say.

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And sometimes maybe the things that you've forgotten or the the bits of rap that you didn't think were your best,

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you know, but all the things that stick with people and that you're still, still hearing and and stick in their memory.

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I mean, what has been the highlight for you of your career so far?

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Are there any particular moments that stand out in terms of working for the Latin programme?

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There have been highlights that have been like making the film and seeing that premiered.

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That was really good because obviously we're a peripatetic organisation.

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We work in a variety of schools and I've always wanted to have an occasion where all of our schools

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could come together and interact and sort of share a moment of we're all learning this thing together,

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we're all doing this. And that was a perfect opportunity for that.

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And it was a packed auditorium. Hundreds of kids, they've come they've watched this film, which most of them participated in.

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That was actually a really, really great moment. And that was put together by.

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Dr. Jan Dooley was one of our previous directors, and I was really grateful for that moment.

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Most of the highlights, you know, useful things when you're sort of teaching and you have a great period where you have a class.

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I do private.
 tuition 
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 as well, and I can honestly say that some of our children have attained a standard where they easily fit in in any setting.

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And obviously that's a great joy from going from nothing that just started,

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which is feeding their talents and their ambition and their willingness to do this task.

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And they and they really achieve. And that's there's nothing more,

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more rewarding than seeing a group or several members in a group just really stretch themselves and see how far they can go.

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And throwing challenges to me saying, Sir, we really want to learn about X and if we've done this,

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well, okay, I've got to go ahead and take them with us. That's partly what excites me the most, actually.

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I think that's what excites me the most about about doing the work.

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So let's go on to your own personal journey a little bit more. So we've got that.

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You loved music, loved languages from an early age and then was studying those through through school.

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You then went to university and studied social anthropology.

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So what was your interest in that? How did that come about and what did that entail as a university experience for you?

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Oh, at university. I had no idea what I was going to study, really.

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I had let me put it in context that I'm in my the year I left school at 18 and, you know, with A-levels, a good A-levels.

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So I was obviously set on, you know, going to the university.

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And then I went off doing music, I went on tour to some different countries with some groups and that was a great experience.

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And then I came back to university and just sort of was there, and I'm not a very good student.

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I'm more of a self study person. And at the time, you know, I had problems with university, so I didn't really anthropology.

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It didn't resonate with me. And I mean, I love the study of different people and I love certain aspects of reading and I loved doing the dissertation,

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going to do a piece of research that was really interesting.

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But like being in university wasn't something I was, I think I was built for at that time.

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So I guess what I'm trying to say is that if I am a good teacher, I think part of it comes from being a bad student,

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being a student who really I'm pretty disrespectful to most of my teachers, I think, Why are we learning this?

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I'm often the person that will ask those questions and I can recognise ahead of time when I'm going to be asked those questions.

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So I may know, I may still do what I'm doing, but I'm like, okay, well yeah, but I this is why we're doing I'm ahead of that.

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Do you see what I mean? I don't come at it with those assumptions. So university I kind of what I didn't think was important, I didn't do well.

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How did you then choose to more formally enter into education and become a teacher?

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I've always enjoyed working with kids. Even when I was a young person, I used to run music workshops.

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I used to learn some Japanese. They roped me in at the community centre to try and do a manga club.

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Watching, this was quite early, so like these kids were, you know, leading edge kids.

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We watched manga and try to translate that kind of thing.

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So this is from when I was young. I've always worked with children, so it was natural for me to work in education.

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I worked in special education for a couple of years, working with children with a wide variety of needs.

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Obviously that was great experience. It was a very enjoyable job as well.

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And then I think I moved and I thought, okay, I'd like to move more formally into education.

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I had a look at some of the positions that were out there and the Latin programme were hiring and they specifically

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even at that stage were requesting for people who had some sort of creative background or a different approach.

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Well, I thought that might suit me and as soon as I started I really enjoyed it.

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I remember the first and the first place that I ever went to.

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I'm still teaching there. Yeah.

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In fact, some when I was talking about one of the children who came up to me in the shopping centre, like he was in one of those first classes,

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often see children who I've taught over the years from that from that school, and that was the transition.

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It was just, okay, I would like to do something more formal within education.

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And I think that was that was how it happened. And how do you find time to fit both the Latin programme and Rap teach and all of

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your own various creative projects and teaching and tutoring within all of that?

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It sounds like you have a lot on your plate, but also it's everything that you love.

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What does a day in the life look like for you these days?

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Well, life's busy, but I think if I was, I'm not I think I'm not good at being idle.

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I think. I can be either. I'm not saying I'm one of those people that, you know, you hear people say, I'm unable to sit still and do nothing.

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I can do that. But I'm trying to find a way to say this without sounding extremely pompous.

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I think everyone's got things that they have to just do.

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And these are the things that I have to do and not like anybody's compelling me to do them like I love doing them.

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So I'm going to do them. That's just what happens. So I've always loved, like I said, learning.

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I've loved language.

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I mean, even on top of that, I'll try and so start the you know, I'm gonna try and brush up on my Russian every so often goes to the back.

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But, you know, I'm trying to keep active and learning.

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I mean, and then I'll justify, I'll say, well I've got ten Russian students dotted about my various classes.

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It helps me communicate with them better. But, you know, really, it's just a desire to want to do that thing.

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It's quite selfishly motivated, I think.

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I mean, in terms of teaching, teaching, that's obviously the part of my life where I think it's it's altruistic is something

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that you can do that helps others and you see the results fairly quickly.

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But even within that, how you approach it because how are you going to do it?

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What you can do it in a way that that feeds, feeds the things that excite you as well.

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So on the podcast,

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we've been asking every contributor to reflect on the person place idea concept from the ancient world that resonates with you the most,

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which is yours? Jonathan I'd to say the place that resonates with me the most would be Silchester 

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just because that was the first time I ever realised that the ancient world was actually all around us.

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And it's not only there as this abstract idea of, okay, there were these things that happened.

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There are physical manifestations of it in places that are close to where you are.

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And that's actually been one of the biggest motivators for doing some of the activities we've done in terms of outreach and a topic based curriculum,

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knowing that we can use the world as a canvas, bringing the past to life.

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But the aim is the aim is to examine the present and change the future.

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Brilliant. Thank you. Perfect answer. So finally, we have a few quickfire questions if you don't mind.

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Okay? Yeah. I'll be ready. Yeah, Go for it.

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Cithara or autos. Oh, aulos. lyric or hexameter? Hexameter. gerund or gerundive, gerund.

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Would you prefer to write an Olympian ode like Pindar or a powerful love poem like Catullus or yet?

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Hmm. I hate and I love Catullus much. 

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This is your favourite character from mythology.

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My favourite character from mythology. All the Olympians, all the flawed Olympians.

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I love all the flawed characters. You got to you've got to pick one of these. Zeus.

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And Japanese. Or Russian? Russian.

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I can do literature better. And if you had to sum up why we should all learn Latin in a few words or a sentence, what would you say?

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Well it underpins so much of what is our society and understanding of knowledge and culture today that I think it's just like a superpower.

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It's a, you know, tunnel into everything. It helps you understand the structure of so much about society in the world.

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Oh, and obviously it's got great literature. Thank you, Jonathan Goddard for being on the Classics podcast.

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It's been a pleasure. Oh, thank you very much for having me and thank you very much to the classical association for all that they do.