1 00:00:00,300 --> 00:00:02,910 So, Paul, at this point, I want to come back across to you now. 2 00:00:02,910 --> 00:00:09,480 This is a I think, a very interesting other potential mistake, which doesn't get a lot of airtime often, 3 00:00:09,930 --> 00:00:15,240 but it's to do with a revolt that's happening in the Persian Empire, which the Athenians back. 4 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:21,030 So we have this character called Amorges, and he is mentioned by Andocides. 5 00:00:21,030 --> 00:00:25,950 Again, in 329, his father Hesoucenes 6 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:34,140 who is the satrap of Lydia in certainly in the four forties when the simians man revolted and he'd given them some help. 7 00:00:34,590 --> 00:00:45,480 And it seems that at some point after 420 Hesoucenes rebels against Darius the second who had become king in about 44. 8 00:00:45,990 --> 00:00:52,360 And it seems that Amorges carries on with or takes up again this revolt in about 414. 9 00:00:52,380 --> 00:00:57,900 Now, this is obviously trying to overthrow the Persian king and the Athenians backed him to do this. 10 00:00:58,470 --> 00:01:05,629 And in the end, he gets hunted down. And this makes Darius no doubt particularly angry and resentful towards the Athenians. 11 00:01:05,630 --> 00:01:08,840 So Paul is that another terrible mistake? What were they doing here? 12 00:01:09,850 --> 00:01:19,450 Well, the Athenians, as I have said, had always been, if you like, anti Persian since the great Persian invasion of Xerxes, 13 00:01:19,450 --> 00:01:24,120 whereas the Spartans had withdrawn from being aggressively anti Persian, 14 00:01:24,670 --> 00:01:33,400 the Athenians may have made a peace and they may have renewed the peace in the mid four twenties with Darius the second when he came to the throne. 15 00:01:33,670 --> 00:01:37,900 But even though they were formally at peace, there was always an itching. 16 00:01:38,050 --> 00:01:45,250 We've been talking, as Maria has so nicely said, about Athenians' aggressive character. 17 00:01:45,490 --> 00:01:50,530 The Athenians were always constantly wishing to meddle, if you like, in the Persian Empire, 18 00:01:50,740 --> 00:01:55,479 in pursuit of, let's face it, what their overall goal was in taking on the Persians, 19 00:01:55,480 --> 00:02:02,500 liberating the Greeks of Asia permanently from Persian control, obviously, 20 00:02:02,500 --> 00:02:08,770 then incorporating them in their own sphere, but nevertheless taking them out of the Persian one. 21 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:16,780 So if a satrap rebels internally, satrap being a provincial governor with immense resources, 22 00:02:17,110 --> 00:02:25,270 both of money and of men appointed directly by the great king in Susa or in Persepolis in Iran. 23 00:02:25,540 --> 00:02:29,410 These are really powerful people if they go into revolt. Wow. 24 00:02:29,710 --> 00:02:35,680 You know, it's like being in a sweet shop for the Athenians because they're doing what the Athenians want, 25 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:41,630 which is to disrupt the normal Persian control of all of Asia. 26 00:02:41,920 --> 00:02:48,850 So in 414, as you mentioned, James, actually the Athenians are doing three things which are extremely risky. 27 00:02:48,850 --> 00:02:54,129 One, Sicilian expedition. Two, I've mentioned they're supporting Amorges. 28 00:02:54,130 --> 00:03:02,110 Three, and this is what the Spartans later say is their justification for invading Attica. 29 00:03:02,110 --> 00:03:08,739 Setting up the Decalia the fort in and starting to build the fleet 30 00:03:08,740 --> 00:03:14,170 and so the Athenians in 414 invade Spartan territory just as they had 31 00:03:14,170 --> 00:03:21,219 done in the previous phase of the war in 425 pylos bacteria now four and for 32 00:03:21,220 --> 00:03:27,730 they invade epidaurus Limora on the eastern coast of Laconia, 33 00:03:27,970 --> 00:03:31,330 and that is the causa Belli of four, four and three. 34 00:03:31,330 --> 00:03:36,550 And following for the Spartans as related specifically by Thucydides. 35 00:03:37,970 --> 00:03:44,990 Thank you. And just to get back to that support for Amorges' revolt which fails, should we see that as a crucial mistake, 36 00:03:44,990 --> 00:03:53,240 given that we're now going to have the Persians coming in on the spot and saying, Do you think that really push the Persians towards the Spartans? 37 00:03:54,530 --> 00:03:58,380 You know, it's a very good question. I think it required also diplomacy. 38 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:04,100 So there is a Spartan called Lykas, who played a key role in negotiations. 39 00:04:04,340 --> 00:04:07,840 And it wasn't immediately, as it were, a done deal. 40 00:04:07,850 --> 00:04:15,080 What exactly the terms on which the Spartans would make an agreement with the Persians for the Persian support against the Athenians. 41 00:04:15,350 --> 00:04:17,329 I mean, it's an obvious thing for the Spartans. 42 00:04:17,330 --> 00:04:27,470 It's what they'd wanted from 431 Get Persia on your side against the Athenians and you're going to really disrupt the Athenians in their backyard, 43 00:04:27,650 --> 00:04:31,520 the Aegean. So there's nothing new about the triangularity of it. 44 00:04:31,730 --> 00:04:35,209 What's new is and I think you're right, poking the bear, 45 00:04:35,210 --> 00:04:43,520 as I've heard it called by supporting a satrap revolt will not have endeared the Athenians to Darius. 46 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:48,310 That is certainly correct. Okay. So another Athenian mistaken you think. 47 00:04:48,670 --> 00:04:56,680 So, Maria, we're going to enter into the either the Ionian War or the Dekalion war, sometimes known by either name. 48 00:04:57,130 --> 00:05:02,890 And think about what's going on here. And Persia now becomes really important, as we've suggested. 49 00:05:03,280 --> 00:05:06,620 But we need to be careful here because there's not one United Persian Front. 50 00:05:06,620 --> 00:05:10,899 It's the we've got two Satrapi's or provinces in this region. 51 00:05:10,900 --> 00:05:16,000 We've got Lydia, which is sort of central what we would think of as central western Turkey. 52 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:22,730 And then we've got Phrygia, which is up in the Hellespont region and towards Byzantium. 53 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,950 And down in Lydia, the satrap is called Tissaphernes. 54 00:05:27,250 --> 00:05:34,390 And up in the Hellespont, which is obviously a crucial economic point for shipping coming from the Black Sea, we have Pharnabarsus. 55 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:43,209 So what then happens is rather odd because both of these satraps try to get Sparta to come and work with them. 56 00:05:43,210 --> 00:05:46,510 So why are these two satraps not working together? What's going on there? 57 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:51,920 Well, first of all, as Paul said, these were very powerful people. 58 00:05:52,460 --> 00:05:59,330 And Tissapherne was tasked also with settling things after Amorges revolt. 59 00:05:59,930 --> 00:06:05,540 And a more general point that needs to be made about those satraps or local governors is that 60 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:11,120 they were very powerful and they often were associated by types of kinship with a throne. 61 00:06:11,690 --> 00:06:17,420 And it was, as it were, part of their role. They competed with each other for royal favour. 62 00:06:17,900 --> 00:06:23,720 And their job was to deliver the aims of the empire. 63 00:06:24,590 --> 00:06:30,140 Now, in the context of the end of the Peloponnesian War and Tisspahernes and Pharnabanus and the battles in the Hellespont, 64 00:06:30,470 --> 00:06:37,280 more specifically, they were the two options that the Spartans had to win the war. 65 00:06:37,580 --> 00:06:49,700 And for a long time, Alcibiades' plan was to persuade the Spartans that Tissaphernes was their best chance to make them win the war. 66 00:06:50,810 --> 00:06:56,540 And they believed him for a long time. In fact, Alcibiades' plan was to go back home. 67 00:06:57,140 --> 00:07:03,709 And in fact, we are told by Thucydides what he really wanted is to allow the Athenians 68 00:07:03,710 --> 00:07:08,210 win the war after a prolonged period of attrition between Athens and Sparta. 69 00:07:08,570 --> 00:07:13,970 And what he was really saying to Tissaphernes the satrap of the Ionia in Caria. 70 00:07:14,180 --> 00:07:20,630 This, too, went together with the Lydian satrapy what was really advising to suffer and 71 00:07:20,870 --> 00:07:27,500 was to play Athens and Sparta between each other against each other and wear them out. 72 00:07:28,100 --> 00:07:33,409 And after this prolonged period. At the end with his plan, we are told. 73 00:07:33,410 --> 00:07:36,610 But Thucydides was to allow the Athenians win the war. Why? 74 00:07:36,970 --> 00:07:42,730 Because the Athenians were good imperialists and they would serve the plans of the Persian Empire better. 75 00:07:43,090 --> 00:07:48,880 They would be more useful to the King in keeping those Greeks of the coast subdued, 76 00:07:49,450 --> 00:07:54,910 rather than the Spartans who, at the end of the day, were the liberators of Greece. 77 00:07:55,980 --> 00:07:59,170 Okay. So, yeah, Alcibiades. He's just all over the place, isn't he. 78 00:07:59,190 --> 00:08:08,610 So he is working with Tissaphernes now advising first of all the Spartans to stick to Tisspahernes rather than Pharnabasus. 79 00:08:08,940 --> 00:08:16,530 Then he gets expelled or he has to remove himself from Sparta because he's accused of sleeping with the king's wife. 80 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,790 So he has to get out of Sparta pretty fast because his life is in danger. 81 00:08:21,060 --> 00:08:23,130 And where does he end up? He ends up in Persia. 82 00:08:23,490 --> 00:08:28,920 And he's, as you say, he encourages Tisspahernes to just where the Athenians and the Spartans down. 83 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:35,100 But he's looking for an Athenian victory. Partly, he sells its testimonies because that's going to be better for the king. 84 00:08:35,340 --> 00:08:38,400 But of course, he wants to get back to Athens himself as well. 85 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,720 He's longing for home. So you think he will pull at that point? 86 00:08:42,750 --> 00:08:45,390 Let's just talk a little bit about Athenian politics, 87 00:08:45,690 --> 00:08:53,130 because just around this time we have an oligarchy which suddenly replaces the democracy for a few months. 88 00:08:53,180 --> 00:08:57,510 So what is going on there and how is Alcibiades involved in this one? 89 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:08,250 As Maria mentioned earlier, one of the Athenians first responses to that terrible defeat in Sicily was not to blame themselves. 90 00:09:08,340 --> 00:09:13,170 He said it is scathing about the masses. He's not a Democrat himself, by the way. 91 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,590 He thinks they should have taken the blame and carried the can. 92 00:09:16,980 --> 00:09:26,400 Instead, a board of ten, probouloi literally, people who put counsels forth or before the assembly, 93 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:33,209 but a kind of check on the assembly and on the council of 500, which is the assembly steering committee, 94 00:09:33,210 --> 00:09:36,750 in other words, a somewhat modification of the radical, 95 00:09:36,750 --> 00:09:45,870 extreme democracy that Athens had had since the four late four sixties and four fifties and the have always been in Athens. 96 00:09:45,870 --> 00:09:49,290 This is sometimes forgotten a group of extreme. 97 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:56,170 So they call them right wingers, people who hate the very notion of demokratia, 98 00:09:56,190 --> 00:10:03,930 where they violate all all Kratoed, that is, they are conquered and ruled by their inferiors. 99 00:10:04,110 --> 00:10:07,530 The world turned upside down. So they're willing to do. 100 00:10:07,530 --> 00:10:14,310 And now this is where Thucydides is not an extreme anti-Democrat or an extreme pro oligarch. 101 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:21,570 He says this group of people, they eventually form a government, a regime which we know as the regime of the 400. 102 00:10:21,900 --> 00:10:26,160 He says that they couldn't give a damn about what was best for Athens. 103 00:10:26,610 --> 00:10:30,120 They only interested in their own power and ideology, 104 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:39,990 which is that the few rich should rule without being responsible to the masses and they conduct sort of agitprop. 105 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:49,530 There is a group of youths paid by them thugs basically to beat up Democrats leading pro-Democratic politicians. 106 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:59,430 And this is not the first time and it won't be the last where domestic politics trumps athens's strategic needs in a war. 107 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:08,100 And that, I think, is what this of this is getting at partly when he talks about the internal disputes leading to mistakes. 108 00:11:08,430 --> 00:11:11,549 And so the first form of oligarchy is extreme. 109 00:11:11,550 --> 00:11:18,290 And it's led by a man called Antiphon, who some of us think was actually Thucydides' teacher. 110 00:11:18,300 --> 00:11:22,290 His rhetoric teacher, his oratory teacher. 111 00:11:22,290 --> 00:11:26,490 But regardless of that, we know the team was an extreme oligarch. 112 00:11:26,790 --> 00:11:33,930 That regime, however, upsets even moderate oligarchs who think that's too far. 113 00:11:34,470 --> 00:11:40,710 We need to have a little bit of balance, a little bit more popular government, not totally oligarchic. 114 00:11:40,980 --> 00:11:46,830 So after four months, they are overthrown and succeeded by what's called a mixed regime. 115 00:11:46,890 --> 00:11:54,180 He suddenly says something terribly complimentary about it something like the best form of government in my time. 116 00:11:54,450 --> 00:11:59,020 And he presumably means pragmatic liberty might mean theoretically enduring. 117 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:09,420 They last only eight months because Athens is such by now a long tradition of normal politics being democratic, 118 00:12:09,660 --> 00:12:14,130 that any form, even a moderate form of oligarchy seems unnatural. 119 00:12:14,370 --> 00:12:18,959 And so after eight months, in other words, a total of one year of oligarchy, 120 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:27,200 where in 410 the Athenians re gain their democracy, and this is very much relevant to Alcibiades. 121 00:12:27,210 --> 00:12:31,380 It's very much relevant to certain battles that are now going to be fought. 122 00:12:31,590 --> 00:12:37,770 And this is the last phase we are talking about of the Peloponnesian War as an entity as a whole. 123 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:40,509 Well, let's just come back to that, 124 00:12:40,510 --> 00:12:47,380 because I think that if we hadn't realised that Alcibiades would just do absolutely anything to feather his own nest. 125 00:12:47,590 --> 00:12:52,750 I think he starts off being a supporter of the 401 and of the oligarchs. 126 00:12:53,020 --> 00:12:55,630 And then when they exclude him, 127 00:12:56,080 --> 00:13:07,280 he basically flips and he goes and supports the democratic Athenian fleet on on Samos and is part of the movement which gets the democracy restored. 128 00:13:07,300 --> 00:13:13,420 Is that correct? This is absolutely correct. And you've got to remember the Athenian fleet, let's say 1680, 129 00:13:13,660 --> 00:13:19,930 that's thousands of ordinary Athenian citizens who are away from permanently away from Athens. 130 00:13:20,230 --> 00:13:27,220 They can't directly through their votes in the assembly or in any other way counteract oligarchy back in Athens. 131 00:13:27,550 --> 00:13:30,700 And indeed, you're quite right about these appeals to them. 132 00:13:30,700 --> 00:13:37,300 And the only basis on which you can appeal to them is, oh, I'm just as good a Democrat as you. 133 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:47,320 Now, Thuycdides as at an earlier point, made it clear that for Alcibiades ideology took very much second place to pragmatics. 134 00:13:47,650 --> 00:13:52,750 What he was interested in was Alcibiades and promoting Alcibiades. 135 00:13:52,750 --> 00:14:00,670 So any way to get back or any regime that will support what he wants to do for himself, he's going to put his weight behind that. 136 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:05,800 You're quite right. And this is not yet how it happens, but eventually it is how it happens. 137 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:11,770 It is the renewed, restored democracy that finally recalls Alcibiades. 138 00:14:12,990 --> 00:14:20,520 Well, thank you. And you mentioned these naval victories. And so Athens in 411, 410, just around this time and after the restoration of democracy, 139 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:27,930 suddenly has a really good surge in three naval battles up in around the area of the Hellespont, 140 00:14:28,500 --> 00:14:35,489 Sinai, Selma, which is almost, I think the last have been recounted by Thucydides where the Athenians have a naval victory. 141 00:14:35,490 --> 00:14:40,320 And Thucydides says this really gave the Athenians hope that they could win the war. 142 00:14:40,770 --> 00:14:49,079 And then a narrative moves on to either Xenophon or Diodorus, and they talk about victories nearby as well at Abydos, 143 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,890 and then particularly at Sisicus, which is a whopping victory. 144 00:14:53,730 --> 00:14:58,320 So Athens seems to be up and running again and perhaps on course for victory. 145 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,469 And at this point the sources are rather unclear. 146 00:15:01,470 --> 00:15:09,150 But the Spartans over the next few years make either one or two peace offerings just as they had done in 45 and say, 147 00:15:09,150 --> 00:15:14,790 come on, let's, let's call it a draw, let's call it off. Should the Athenians have taken those? 148 00:15:15,750 --> 00:15:20,970 Well, it's the same point I made when you asked me the question, really, about 425-4 and onwards. 149 00:15:21,570 --> 00:15:33,300 The terms would be so tricky to work out that even when as in 421, they did arrange treaty terms and not just peace, but also alliance. 150 00:15:33,510 --> 00:15:43,890 How long did they last? So in other words, I'm of the view that a peace without a decisive victory was not going to be a lasting peace. 151 00:15:44,220 --> 00:15:50,549 So in a way, the Athenians were doing, as Maria said earlier, quite surprisingly well, 152 00:15:50,550 --> 00:15:58,860 given the low ebb they were at in 413, having lost so many men and ships in Sicily, they were doing amazingly well. 153 00:15:58,890 --> 00:16:04,710 But the best I think they could have hoped for was winning through again. 154 00:16:04,890 --> 00:16:10,620 And Sparta in 410 was not obviously very badly damaged. 155 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,220 And therefore, you know, what sort of a peace would it be? 156 00:16:14,310 --> 00:16:20,580 What likelihood would there be of it lasting? Which side was going to, as it were, come out on top? 157 00:16:20,790 --> 00:16:24,810 What would stop them interfering in each other's sphere? 158 00:16:25,380 --> 00:16:31,410 It's not clear to me that was a form of words that would have satisfied all those criteria. 159 00:16:32,410 --> 00:16:38,770 Okay. Thank you. It sounds like we don't feel that that is a serious Athenian mistake that we're probably being realistic in carrying on the war. 160 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:48,820 Well, let me move forward. When? Right at the end, the Athenians are starving, but they're about to all die from starvation rather than make peace. 161 00:16:49,060 --> 00:16:54,610 Cleophon says whatever you do, do not make peace with the Spartans. 162 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,810 They agree with him, you know. They're going to die as a result. 163 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:07,470 That just shows you how by that stage I don't think it's quite come to this, but no accommodation is possible. 164 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:15,520 The Athenians get to a point where they just feel, We've fought all this, we've lost all this, we're going to come up with a decisive result some way. 165 00:17:15,610 --> 00:17:19,180 We're going to go down fighting or not at all. 166 00:17:19,870 --> 00:17:23,410 Well, that links very well to Maria's points, I think about national character. 167 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:30,490 So Maria, let's come across to you, because in 407, we have one of these moments in history which changes everything. 168 00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:37,990 So up until this point, Tissaphernes has not really been backing Sparta financially in the way that he said that he would. 169 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:49,090 But this all changes in 47 when the second son of Darius the second is appointed to be commander in the West, and he's known as Cyrus the Younger. 170 00:17:49,100 --> 00:17:52,210 Not to be confused with the founder, really, of the Persian Empire. 171 00:17:52,540 --> 00:17:59,140 And this Cyrus, I think he's only 16 years old, so he'll be younger than most of all A-level students listening to this. 172 00:17:59,530 --> 00:18:04,570 And he is sent down. And this makes all the difference. He's prepared to fund things. 173 00:18:04,870 --> 00:18:08,319 So why do we get this change of policy? 174 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:12,910 And what's in it for Cyrus to get this war sorted in favour of Sparta? 175 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:19,490 Well, yes, Cyrus. Again, we come across the problem of our sources. 176 00:18:19,510 --> 00:18:23,590 It is important to see a little bit how this young prince is presented. 177 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:34,360 I mean, Xenophon has a beautiful encounter between Cyrus and Lysander in his gardens and although they are very different sort of personalities, 178 00:18:34,360 --> 00:18:38,739 Lysander is a father and enable generals. Cyrus is somewhat soft, 179 00:18:38,740 --> 00:18:48,850 but with a very charismatic personality leadership and he undertakes a task to deliver for his father in those parts of the world. 180 00:18:49,390 --> 00:18:55,010 So he's presented by Xenophon in a very favourable light for obvious reasons. 181 00:18:55,030 --> 00:19:02,740 Because when he revolted, when he went against his brother Artaxerxes, the second in 41, he lost his life eventually. 182 00:19:02,890 --> 00:19:07,840 Xenophon was 10,000 Greeks had joined his his army so. 183 00:19:07,870 --> 00:19:17,439 XENOPHON There's something apologetic there. On the other hand in Didorus is a different somewhat picture and in Ctesias again because Ctesias was 184 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:23,800 a doctor in the court of is the second so in the enemy of Cyrus when the two brothers came to blows, 185 00:19:24,220 --> 00:19:28,060 this is a different picture to sketch again to provide. 186 00:19:28,570 --> 00:19:36,340 So the sources are important. Nevertheless, he was a remarkable personality in his role as I said was to deliver for for the king. 187 00:19:36,970 --> 00:19:44,200 So he started pumping money to the Spartans. He increased the payment of the sailors, which was cut down by Tissaphernes. 188 00:19:44,710 --> 00:19:53,650 And that immediately made a difference. I think that's really important to say, that we don't have hugely reliable sources about Cyrus. 189 00:19:53,980 --> 00:19:59,410 And of course, what we do not have and it's important always for our students to be aware of this, is we don't have the Persian version here. 190 00:19:59,710 --> 00:20:05,770 We don't have a Persian historian telling us what's in it for them and what's driving their policy. 191 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:13,360 So we really, I guess, have to guess. But could it be that Cyrus has got an eye on the fact that he's got an older brother 192 00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:17,790 who's going to become king when his father dies and he's not terribly happy about this. 193 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:26,860 And so if he has a big success out in the West with this job, it strengthens his own position to possibly challenge his brother for the kingship. 194 00:20:26,860 --> 00:20:30,939 Is that what might be happening? Do we think? Yes, definitely. 195 00:20:30,940 --> 00:20:34,030 His actions are related to his hegemonic ambitions. 196 00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:39,190 We should we should take that for granted. And, Paul, you want to say something? 197 00:20:39,340 --> 00:20:40,899 Yeah. If I could just pitch in, share, 198 00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:51,040 say firm and ask Xerxes as he becomes the second sons were full brothers and the Persian monarchy operates in the harem system. 199 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,879 So Persian King would have several lines but his principal wife, 200 00:20:54,880 --> 00:21:01,360 that is Darius is was Paris artist who was the mother of both sexes and second answers. 201 00:21:01,630 --> 00:21:11,820 And I believe those sources who see her as a major factor in persuading Darius, her husband, to send very young, only 16, though. 202 00:21:11,830 --> 00:21:17,260 Remember, Alexander the Great was 16 when he became regent of Macedon in the fourth century 203 00:21:17,260 --> 00:21:22,750 B.C. So some individuals are capable of showing extreme promise at a very young age. 204 00:21:23,110 --> 00:21:29,020 What I think it signifies is Darius persuaded by various reserves, his older Darius making up his own mind. 205 00:21:29,380 --> 00:21:37,630 What's going on in the West is for the moment, the number one foreign policy issue of the Achaemenid empire, which, remember, 206 00:21:37,630 --> 00:21:46,240 stretched all the way to Afghanistan and Pakistan in the east up into Central Asia, as well as to the Asia minor seaboard in the west. 207 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:54,940 So it's not common for Greek affairs to be number one in the minds of a ruler based in Iran. 208 00:21:55,750 --> 00:22:01,810 Okay. Thank you. So we've talked about one of the individuals there, the mother of Cyrus and Artaxerxes. 209 00:22:02,140 --> 00:22:10,690 We just want to think about the impact that individuals can have on history, because, of course, this is always a talking point for historians. 210 00:22:11,050 --> 00:22:22,450 And one of the features, Paul, one of the features of this era is that Lysander, the Spartan, is appointed as the Spartan admiral over in the Aegean. 211 00:22:22,870 --> 00:22:29,560 And he and Cyrus, if we believe the sources, have something of a bromance, they get on really, really well. 212 00:22:30,700 --> 00:22:37,030 And does this show that individual relationships really are important in changing the course of history? 213 00:22:37,330 --> 00:22:46,090 Well, as general as it were, theoretical problem in all historiography, the role of what sometimes called the event making hero. 214 00:22:46,390 --> 00:22:50,200 And I've written about this myself in relation to a particular Spartan King. 215 00:22:50,200 --> 00:23:00,759 Agesilaus the second who just happened to be the young beloved of Lysander in Sparta back in an earlier period of Spartan history. 216 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:11,320 So Lysander is a man of immense connections, right at the heart of the Spartan policy making machine, hence his appointment as admiral. 217 00:23:11,530 --> 00:23:15,370 The Spartans had a particular word for it and you could only have it once. 218 00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:23,290 But Lysander was signed to ensure that he got himself wangled back when legally he shouldn't have been reappointed. 219 00:23:23,290 --> 00:23:27,520 But that's for the future. In 407, he does encounter service. 220 00:23:27,550 --> 00:23:28,540 They do hit it off. 221 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:39,670 Lysander is a much older man and I you can never say exactly what is the chemistry, what is the cause of bromance, which I love that word, 222 00:23:39,940 --> 00:23:48,940 but it is precisely what does seem true and the bit that Maria mentioned about them chatting together in sonorous paradise. 223 00:23:49,030 --> 00:23:56,290 Well, Spartans didn't actually go much, but person, rulers, kings, grandees. 224 00:23:56,290 --> 00:23:59,990 They loved the gardens in which of course they also hunted. 225 00:24:00,010 --> 00:24:04,839 I mean, they're not just flower gardens. So there is something going on here now. 226 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:13,710 I think as a historian and a little bit sceptical of the notion that individuals make history all by themselves. 227 00:24:14,020 --> 00:24:20,830 They don't. They make it under the conditions in which they are brought up, reared, and then which they find themselves. 228 00:24:21,130 --> 00:24:30,760 The key, the clue, the gift is to be able to turn the events or the context to the direction that you particularly want. 229 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:42,370 So what Lysander needs is an absolutely steady supply of more money, such that there is a longer period to train, to recruit and train sailors, 230 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:51,190 to grow these very complicated treasury, more ships with which he's going to take on and of course, eventually beat the Athenians. 231 00:24:51,190 --> 00:25:01,810 So what he wants is a stability of supply and to have somebody there who is permanently going to be pro Spartan for a considerable time, at any rate. 232 00:25:02,380 --> 00:25:05,380 Okay, thank you. So everything has changed in 407. 233 00:25:05,710 --> 00:25:11,830 And then we can look at three potential Athenian mistakes which bring us down to 404 and the end of the war. 234 00:25:12,250 --> 00:25:19,210 So the first potential mistake is this battle of Notium, which is on the Asiatic coast of the Aegean. 235 00:25:19,900 --> 00:25:25,299 And very simply, Alcibiades leaves his helmsman in charge of the Athenian fleet. 236 00:25:25,300 --> 00:25:31,000 He's called Antiochus, I think, and he's basically says, whatever you do, don't engage in battle. 237 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:36,310 And Alcibiades heads off. And Antiochus does engage in battle and. 238 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:37,990 The Athenians lose that battle. 239 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:45,670 And as a result, the Athenians are so annoyed with Alcibiades, they blame Alciabiades that they exile him again, or. 240 00:25:45,670 --> 00:25:48,460 They effectively force him to take himself into exile. 241 00:25:48,850 --> 00:25:55,780 So was this just another bit of Athenian politicking where they got rid of their best general, Maria? 242 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:03,639 Well, perhaps we can think again of this wide a factor that Paul mentioned too of looking at history 243 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:09,850 and history writing as history as a narrative of factors and as a narrative of individuals. 244 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:14,260 Again, this this question applies here, too. I mean, you see, 245 00:26:14,350 --> 00:26:19,209 Thucydides, one of the reasons why he is considered to be a modern historian from 246 00:26:19,210 --> 00:26:24,790 antiquity is because he has allowed us to see the perspective of deeper factors. 247 00:26:24,790 --> 00:26:28,490 Of the wider picture. At the same time. 248 00:26:28,910 --> 00:26:36,740 And perhaps paradoxically, he's so good at attributing personal motives and connecting events with personal motives. 249 00:26:37,100 --> 00:26:40,970 We find that in the Nicisa peace. 250 00:26:42,050 --> 00:26:45,830 It is about what we call today. We call today personal vision. 251 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:53,570 We found that in Alcibiades as well. Now, Notium, of course, is out, as you said, it is not to do and to go to this particular point. 252 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:59,660 But again, we see the Athenians not being able to forgive this from Alcibiades. 253 00:26:59,810 --> 00:27:04,550 They've had enough with him, to put it simply, although he didn't mess it up himself. 254 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:09,230 It was his second in command, Antiochus, who didn't listen to him and engaged in battle. 255 00:27:09,980 --> 00:27:14,710 And the Athenians simply wouldn't forgive him by doing so. 256 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:19,550 Of course, they condemned their own selves because by losing Alcibiades, 257 00:27:19,850 --> 00:27:26,870 they lost the single chance they had at the time of a Navy general in those areas who could win them the war. 258 00:27:28,220 --> 00:27:33,770 Okay. So we think that's a very clear and senior mistake that is getting rid of our societies of the notion. 259 00:27:34,220 --> 00:27:41,750 Now, Paul, if things hadn't got bad enough the following year, the Athenians have a naval victory organising well done them. 260 00:27:42,350 --> 00:27:50,270 But they turn it into a disaster, we might say, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, really, because they have this victory against Sparta. 261 00:27:50,630 --> 00:28:01,190 And then they put on trial six of their generals who have been at that victory because they had not collected the soldiers who were in the water, 262 00:28:01,190 --> 00:28:05,120 some of them dead, some of them the dead bodies, we think, and some of them people still alive. 263 00:28:05,450 --> 00:28:12,170 And people back in Athens were so incensed by the fact that their relatives have been left unrecovered after the battle, 264 00:28:12,380 --> 00:28:16,400 that they put these six generals on trial together, which was illegal, 265 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,600 because they're supposed to be charged individually and they have them all executed. 266 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:26,930 So having got rid of Alcibiades, you know, get rid of six of the key military leaders. 267 00:28:27,470 --> 00:28:29,780 Surely that's a serious mistake by the Athenians. 268 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:40,190 It's another case, not the last of the Athenian democracy trumping strategy, in other words, ideology and democratic politics. 269 00:28:40,190 --> 00:28:50,360 Because the situation post the victory was exploited by a politician who we know later his name emerges as an oligarch. 270 00:28:50,600 --> 00:29:00,230 I mean, a very extreme right wing oligarch, not quite as extreme as some others, but nevertheless and one who is soft, shall we say, on the spot. 271 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,639 And I pointed out that in the Peloponnesian War, there is a widespread decision. 272 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:13,580 This makes a big point of this disagreement among people within the relevant states as between oligarchs and Democrats. 273 00:29:13,580 --> 00:29:19,100 And on balance and in general, oligarchs support Sparta and vice versa. 274 00:29:19,100 --> 00:29:23,900 And Democrats support Athens and vice versa. So what's going on at the end? 275 00:29:24,020 --> 00:29:27,649 This is the first major sign after four, 11, ten. 276 00:29:27,650 --> 00:29:39,080 Remember those oligarchy counter coups in 406 is the beginning of the end game whereby democratic politicking of a very nasty kind involving, 277 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:44,420 as you've said, the execution illegal of six of the ten generals of one year. 278 00:29:44,750 --> 00:29:54,500 By the way, all eight generals were summonsed, two of them, very sensibly, did not picked up at that assembly meeting, and they therefore escaped. 279 00:29:54,500 --> 00:30:02,840 And they were proud Democrats. They pop up later playing a key role, resisting the pro spartan anti-democratic movement, 280 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:08,090 which takes over Athens, exploited by Sparta at the very end of the Peloponnesian War. 281 00:30:08,420 --> 00:30:15,829 So the Arginisi trial and the Arginisi the post event manoeuvring in Athens. 282 00:30:15,830 --> 00:30:19,400 Oh, indeed. Yet another major mistake. 283 00:30:20,900 --> 00:30:28,460 Okay. And then that brings us almost to the ends,Aegispotomoi, which is a site again in the Hellespont. 284 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:36,310 And Xenophon tells us and also it's in Plutarch, that the Athenians beached at a place called Aegispotomoi. 285 00:30:36,830 --> 00:30:40,150 And Alcibiades writes, He's in exile. 286 00:30:40,170 --> 00:30:43,940 He's living in a castle nearby, we think. But he's still trying to help Athens. 287 00:30:43,940 --> 00:30:48,760 And he says this is not a good place to move your ships, move it a few miles up the strait. 288 00:30:48,770 --> 00:30:52,969 It's a much better place to fight. And they basically tell him to get stuffed, go away. 289 00:30:52,970 --> 00:30:58,130 We're fed up with you Alcibiades, so they ignore his advice and they have a catastrophic loss. 290 00:30:58,490 --> 00:31:03,230 This really is the moment that they lose the Hellespont, and once they've lost Hellespont, 291 00:31:03,470 --> 00:31:08,840 they don't get their grain supplies and they're put under a siege in Athens. 292 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:14,090 So, again, Maria, is that's just another very poor mistake not listening to Alcibiades there? 293 00:31:14,930 --> 00:31:20,629 It is a fatal mistake. Again, we see individual motivation. 294 00:31:20,630 --> 00:31:25,100 We see problems and the attitudes of the Athenian generals towards Alcibiades. 295 00:31:25,100 --> 00:31:31,220 They were dismissive. Alcibiades, as you said, James, try to to tell them to do more than the ships elsewhere. 296 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,980 But they didn't listen to him and that was fatal. 297 00:31:34,460 --> 00:31:41,510 And it should be said that battle didn't even take place, that the ships were beached because Lysander's, 298 00:31:41,510 --> 00:31:48,800 stratagem was to allow them to relax because he wouldn't attack them for five days. 299 00:31:49,100 --> 00:31:51,860 And on the fifth day when he attacks, they were unprepared. 300 00:31:52,250 --> 00:32:01,100 And it is indicative that only Conon, the able Athenian general, survives and hit his own ship seven and his entourage. 301 00:32:01,460 --> 00:32:10,970 And the ship called Carolus, which is the Athenian ship on state missions, which eventually brought the sad news to Athens. 302 00:32:11,570 --> 00:32:12,830 So, yes, Aegispotomoi. 303 00:32:12,830 --> 00:32:21,050 was a disgrace in the sense that that Alcibiades wasn't listened to and it was a defeat that could have very well been avoided. 304 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:26,240 All they had to do is just fight. They didn't even fight. Okay. 305 00:32:26,250 --> 00:32:30,380 Well, thank you. We've looked at lots and lots of reasons that the Athenians made mistakes. 306 00:32:30,650 --> 00:32:34,730 Paul, I just wonder whether we're being a bit unkind to the Spartans and the Peloponnesians here. 307 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:40,700 Can we identify really positive decisions that they made? 308 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,080 Or was it just a matter of them sitting in and waiting for Athens to make another mistake? 309 00:32:45,500 --> 00:32:47,270 If you believe Thucydides, 310 00:32:47,270 --> 00:32:57,770 the Spartans' pronounced objective at the very beginning of the war was to liberate those Greeks who were in what we call the Athenian empire, 311 00:32:58,130 --> 00:33:07,730 who therefore were not free. In fact, as Thucydides later makes clear, they're not principally motivated by that noble objective, 312 00:33:07,850 --> 00:33:13,220 but they're principally concerned about their own security through their Peloponnesian League. 313 00:33:13,460 --> 00:33:22,760 And secondly, they're not concerned with the absolute liberation of any other Greek city, but with whether or not it was an oligarchy. 314 00:33:22,940 --> 00:33:25,100 They always supported oligarchy. 315 00:33:25,430 --> 00:33:35,960 So to me, when the Spartans got into bed with the Persians, in other words, in order to achieve their ultimate strategic objectives, 316 00:33:36,110 --> 00:33:43,070 which were not altruistic, they're prepared to sacrifice the freedom of Greek cities to Persia, 317 00:33:43,370 --> 00:33:54,440 because that was the Persians condition of giving the Spartans money that the Greek cities of Asia full back again under the Persian Empire, 318 00:33:54,620 --> 00:33:59,720 from which the Athenians had liberated them in the fourth seventies and following. 319 00:33:59,900 --> 00:34:04,410 That to me is a big blot on the discussion of the Spartans, 320 00:34:04,410 --> 00:34:12,290 so it actually really undermines their terrific role in the first Persian War of the beginning of the fifth century, 321 00:34:12,290 --> 00:34:18,199 when they genuinely resisted on behalf of all Greeks as well as themselves, 322 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:24,049 and achieved the liberation of Greece from the potential of Persian domination in. 323 00:34:24,050 --> 00:34:27,390 480-479. Okay. 324 00:34:27,420 --> 00:34:30,920 Well, thank you. So. So perhaps not the most obvious set of motives from Supporter. 325 00:34:31,470 --> 00:34:34,910 Well, Maria, let's just think very finally what happens then. 326 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,950 So Athens is put under siege. It is defeated. 327 00:34:37,950 --> 00:34:43,320 And we have a passage in Xenophon telling us about the the final surrender of Athens don't we. 328 00:34:44,190 --> 00:34:51,000 Yes, Rome to the credit of the Spartans and despite the suggestions of Sparta's allies, 329 00:34:51,450 --> 00:34:57,509 they didn't destroy Athens because it was the city that had offered such a good service to the Greeks. 330 00:34:57,510 --> 00:35:03,090 And then again, we are meant to think of Athens servicing the Persian wars and to Greek freedom. 331 00:35:03,780 --> 00:35:11,460 And as mentioned previously, they resisted even at this low point, they were prepared to face starvation rather than capitulate. 332 00:35:12,150 --> 00:35:18,510 But eventually, they do give up the city and they make terms with the Spartans against, as I said, 333 00:35:18,540 --> 00:35:25,079 the view of the Spartan allies and the conditions were that they would demolish the long walls, 334 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,330 the walls that protected the city, 335 00:35:27,330 --> 00:35:38,400 and they would keep only 12 ships and they would allow the return of exiles and they were to follow the Spartans wherever they led by land and at sea. 336 00:35:39,090 --> 00:35:46,830 That was quite humiliating for the Athenians and as the Spartans did quite frequently at this point in time. 337 00:35:46,890 --> 00:35:54,290 The result inside the city, in the administration of the city, it was the regime of the of the 30 tyrants which lasted eight months. 338 00:35:54,300 --> 00:36: It was a very harsh regime. And it described also we know it from Lysias as well, and his own family involvement with his brother. 339 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,990 And it was a very unpalatable period even for Lysander himself. 340 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:15,110 Okay. And yes, that 30 tyrants needs this a few years later to the trial of Socrates so associated with those. 341 00:36:15,110 --> 00:36:20,030 And if students are doing the Athens depth study, they should be making those links. 342 00:36:20,510 --> 00:36:23,660 So I think at this point we will have to call it to a close. 343 00:36:23,690 --> 00:36:31,700 I'm hugely grateful to both Maria and Paul because we've covered, well, 27 years, 28 years, I guess, because we started in 432. 344 00:36:32,090 --> 00:36:36,469 And it's complicated. It's difficult in places to understand it. 345 00:36:36,470 --> 00:36:42,709 But both of you have made it so clear for us, and I'm sure this will be a very, very useful resource for our students. 346 00:36:42,710 --> 00:36:45,860 So unless have either of you got any final words? 347 00:36:46,860 --> 00:36:51,659 Thank you for being a most genial host. It's a very, very difficult role you've had to play. 348 00:36:51,660 --> 00:36:55,140 And Maria and I are intensely grateful. Thank you. 349 00:36:55,740 --> 00:36:58,800 Thank you Paul. Thank you very much, James. And thank you, Paul. 350 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:01,560 Well, thank you both very much indeed.