1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:05,990 Today. I'm delighted to welcome two academics who are going to be talking with us about interpretation. 2 00:00:06,170 --> 00:00:09,260 One. Why did the Greeks win the Persian wars? 3 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:17,480 So let's meet them. We have Professor Lynnette Mitchell, who is professor of Greek history and politics at Exeter University. 4 00:00:17,810 --> 00:00:24,110 And Dr. Roel Konijnendijk, the Derby fellow in ancient history at Lincoln College, Oxford. 5 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,200 Now we're going to ask each of them to introduce themselves briefly. 6 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:31,940 And I know that each of them are just producing or has produced a book relevant to what we're going to talk about today. 7 00:00:32,270 --> 00:00:37,970 So welcome, Lynnette. Tell us a little bit about your specialist interests and what the book is about. 8 00:00:38,810 --> 00:00:45,000 Hi. I'm a Greek historian, principally published a lot on matters relating to the Greek world. 9 00:00:45,380 --> 00:00:51,110 But I've just produced a book, just finished a book on Cyrus the Great of Persia. 10 00:00:51,140 --> 00:00:56,780 So, of course, well, he found the Persian Empire, which is the who become the protagonists of the Persian Wars. 11 00:00:56,780 --> 00:01:00,200 Of course. Fabulous. And. Well, if we come across you. 12 00:01:00,830 --> 00:01:03,400 Yes. So my name is Roel. I'm a Greek historian as well. 13 00:01:03,410 --> 00:01:08,180 I specialise in Greek warfare and the encounter between Greeks and Persians on the battlefield. 14 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:15,080 Most recently, my work has been focussed on the historiography of Greek warfare, which is to say the way that historians write about it, 15 00:01:15,320 --> 00:01:19,459 which has very deep roots and which which has a lot to do with the way that we frame the 16 00:01:19,460 --> 00:01:23,900 past and the way that we interpret the things that we that we are talking about today, 17 00:01:23,900 --> 00:01:29,480 the way that we explain victories and defeats in the way that we characterise ways of fighting. 18 00:01:30,460 --> 00:01:32,800 Fantastic. Well, let's dive straight in. 19 00:01:32,890 --> 00:01:40,950 It's as I said the interpretation question one the reasons for the victory over the Persians in 480-479 BCE. 20 00:01:40,960 --> 00:01:47,140 So we should just note these dates to start with. We're talking about the second invasion, the Xerxes invasion, and of course, 21 00:01:47,140 --> 00:01:51,520 in the syllabus, students need to have covered the first invasion by Darius as well. 22 00:01:51,790 --> 00:01:54,700 So we will also mention that one because of course it's relevant. 23 00:01:55,210 --> 00:02:03,190 So we've met our guests and I think we probably have to start with thinking about how far can we actually even answer this question? 24 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,380 Well, I don't want them to say that we can't on but I suspect they want to say that. 25 00:02:07,780 --> 00:02:14,409 But do the sources allow us to really answer this question very deeply or effectively, maybe? 26 00:02:14,410 --> 00:02:18,520 Lynette, can you talk to us a bit about how reliant we are on Herodotus here? 27 00:02:19,690 --> 00:02:24,730 Well, as Greek historians we are for this period, we are particularly reliant on Herodotus. 28 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:32,690 The thing about Herodotus, that is he is a fantastic storyteller and he wants to tell a particular, very particular kind of story. 29 00:02:32,710 --> 00:02:37,630 But sometimes the storytelling gets in the way of what might have actually happened. 30 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:45,240 And and particularly in regard to Xerxes, he's setting Xerxes up as a particularly tragic kind of character. 31 00:02:45,250 --> 00:02:54,340 And so his whole storytelling becomes skewed around the drama and even the theatre of producing a story about Xerxes, 32 00:02:54,340 --> 00:02:59,469 which brings out his tragic nature. So that makes it so then difficult. 33 00:02:59,470 --> 00:03:06,160 Or we've got to sort of step aside from that. If we're going to then think about how we can use Herodotus to think about the wars themselves, 34 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:12,070 to sort of get behind that and think about what's history rather than what's theatre and drama. 35 00:03:12,730 --> 00:03:13,930 Okay, that's very helpful. 36 00:03:13,930 --> 00:03:22,270 And I guess we should also say Herodotus, we know he's from Halicarnassus and Asia minor and he's probably doing his research in, 37 00:03:22,270 --> 00:03:29,200 let's say, the four forties and fourth season. We're not entirely sure when he published his book, but the best guess is perhaps the four twenties. 38 00:03:29,230 --> 00:03:34,540 Exactly right. Yes. I mean, I go for a date in the four twenties for production of it. 39 00:03:34,550 --> 00:03:40,900 What publication means is a very sort of it's a disputed area and we don't really know when it became a 40 00:03:40,900 --> 00:03:46,540 written text and it may have been there was a tradition that it was produced orally in the first instance. 41 00:03:46,540 --> 00:03:52,090 So at readings of it at Olympia and some people think also in in Athens. 42 00:03:52,450 --> 00:03:54,700 So it's not necessarily straightforward. 43 00:03:54,880 --> 00:04:01,630 It may be a little bit like Charles Dickens and you're getting a little bit at a time, but that's just sort of, again, part of the storytelling. 44 00:04:01,630 --> 00:04:08,530 And one of the things that we have to take into account when we try to sort of get behind that to find history. 45 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:14,110 And he's he's therefore, he's, what, 50, 60 years after the events. 46 00:04:14,500 --> 00:04:17,739 And you mentioned the tragic portrayal of Xerxes there. 47 00:04:17,740 --> 00:04:25,450 And of course, there's a precedent for that, isn't there? Because in 472, Aeschylus, Athenian playwright produces the play Persians, 48 00:04:25,750 --> 00:04:32,150 which actually sets up Xerxes as a tragic hero in the Athenian tragic tradition. 49 00:04:32,170 --> 00:04:37,750 So how how reliable can we say Herodotus is on the Persian wars? 50 00:04:37,780 --> 00:04:43,390 Is it fair to say that in outline he's reliable, but we have to be really careful with the finer details. 51 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:51,930 I think that's pretty much true with Herodotus all up, that he's he's got an idea of how things happened and he's got an idea of what happened. 52 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:59,290 But sometimes what actually happened is less interesting to him than the story that he wants to tell. 53 00:04:59,920 --> 00:05:09,820 So Herodotus on Persian history in general, he knows things, but how he wants to tell us those things is a different matter. 54 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:17,990 So it's not quite a question of reliability. Perhaps it's because that's not quite the right question in some ways when dealing with Herodotus. 55 00:05:18,340 --> 00:05:25,060 We've got to, you know, either step aside from what he's doing or sort of try and get behind it. 56 00:05:25,750 --> 00:05:30,070 And we've got to understand what he's doing so that we can sort of then find history in it. 57 00:05:30,970 --> 00:05:34,900 Okay. Well, we're going to try and do that this afternoon. Roel. 58 00:05:34,900 --> 00:05:41,730 If we come across to you and think about it from the Persian perspective, trying to understand what their motivations were, 59 00:05:41,740 --> 00:05:47,290 I think it's really important to say for students that talking about where there's an absence 60 00:05:47,290 --> 00:05:53,050 of sources is good ancient historian practice in itself that actually being aware of absence. 61 00:05:53,470 --> 00:05:58,090 And we've got real absence here, haven't we? There's very little to go on to talk to us a bit about that. 62 00:05:58,690 --> 00:06:02,200 Yeah. So I mean, for obviously ages, historians have wondered, I mean, 63 00:06:02,470 --> 00:06:08,020 it's always a risk to rely on the story from only one side in this case, obviously, from a Greek author. 64 00:06:08,410 --> 00:06:14,360 And so people have asked themselves, is it possible to construct this history from the other side, you know, 65 00:06:14,380 --> 00:06:20,880 to create a Persian version of the Persian wars and, you know, to cut a very long story short, the answer is no. 66 00:06:21,130 --> 00:06:27,190 We don't have the sources to do that. And it's very important to be honest about that and to just say those sources aren't there. 67 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,180 There is no comparable narrative historical tradition. 68 00:06:31,180 --> 00:06:39,190 That is to say, we we simply don't hear of Persians writing the kinds of historical narratives that Herodotus set out to write. 69 00:06:39,910 --> 00:06:44,290 And so the only thing we have is some items of iconography. 70 00:06:44,290 --> 00:06:51,700 That is, we have pictures on steel rings and stuff like that of Persians who inevitably beat Greek hoplites or Greek looking figures. 71 00:06:52,360 --> 00:07:00,610 So they have a sort of picture of what their victory looks like, which obviously isn't the story that we know, and it isn't really a story at all. 72 00:07:00,610 --> 00:07:06,430 They're just these little scenes. And then beyond that, the only thing we have is royal inscriptions, 73 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:11,229 which are obviously the most biased source you can possibly imagine in terms of what they're trying to achieve. 74 00:07:11,230 --> 00:07:16,300 It's glorifying the role of the Persian king as the bringer of order and justice in the world. 75 00:07:16,660 --> 00:07:22,710 And so understandably. But also. Generically, this is a source that doesn't go into detail. 76 00:07:23,100 --> 00:07:27,299 They don't like talking about specific events. They kind of stop doing that around this time. 77 00:07:27,300 --> 00:07:32,580 So there is literally no reference to the invasion of Greece, let alone its failure. 78 00:07:32,730 --> 00:07:42,080 So in any Persian source. Yes. I think I'm right in thinking that the Greeks are just mentioned as one of the many peoples of the empire. 79 00:07:42,110 --> 00:07:47,450 So they're they're in the Persian consciousness, but there's nothing important or special about them in any of these inscriptions. 80 00:07:47,450 --> 00:07:48,589 Is that so? 81 00:07:48,590 --> 00:07:54,409 The Persians like to brag about all the different peoples that they ruled over, and this is a very important part of their royal presentation. 82 00:07:54,410 --> 00:07:57,500 So both in palace reliefs and in royal like tomography, 83 00:07:57,500 --> 00:08:03,600 they make a very strong point of stressing all the different peoples and making sure they're all like recognisable in their local dress and, 84 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,920 you know, with their local produce to deliver up to the king. 85 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:14,270 So there's a very strong sense of trying to show the spread of the Persian Empire and justifiably the Greeks are part of that, 86 00:08:14,270 --> 00:08:20,780 because some Greek communities, especially those who are on the West Coast of what is now Turkey, were under Persian rule. 87 00:08:21,140 --> 00:08:27,680 It's just that the Persians essentially declared that by that measure all Greeks were under their command, and they never stopped saying that. 88 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:31,999 So there is no point at which they said, well, actually these Greeks have managed to push us back. 89 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:37,910 We have to admit we don't rule over them anymore. It's like, no, this is a fact once and therefore it's for all time. 90 00:08:38,510 --> 00:08:41,870 And there's no differentiation between Greeks and all the other peoples. 91 00:08:41,870 --> 00:08:45,019 There's not even necessarily any particular order in which these people, 92 00:08:45,020 --> 00:08:53,540 the mentions and they are just one of the many that have been have become subject to the Persian king, as is, you know, the will of the gods. 93 00:08:53,540 --> 00:08:57,500 Essentially, the willows are amongst the god of the Persian kings came. 94 00:08:57,560 --> 00:09:02,750 And again, just trying to see what we can pick from the Persian motivation. 95 00:09:02,750 --> 00:09:09,640 Can we say we accept? I think Xerxes was on this invasion, you know, that Herodotus and every other source tells us that. 96 00:09:09,710 --> 00:09:19,370 So if we accept, that must be true. Does the fact that the Great King comes on this expedition, in this attempted conquest into the Greek mainland, 97 00:09:19,370 --> 00:09:23,810 does that tell us something about the importance that he's attaching to this? 98 00:09:24,170 --> 00:09:32,270 I think it does. And it doesn't, actually, because sort of setting the whole the whole invasion against it, sort of broader context, 99 00:09:32,540 --> 00:09:37,819 so much of it seems to have been about establishing Asia minor and the Greek cities of Asia 100 00:09:37,820 --> 00:09:44,120 minor is the sort of the ascent reaches of the of the empire and trying to stabilise that bit. 101 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:49,429 I mean that's the bit that they always want to get back once they've lost it as a consequence of the Persian wars, 102 00:09:49,430 --> 00:09:56,540 because economically that's what gives them access to the Aegean and to the Mediterranean. 103 00:09:56,540 --> 00:10:01,730 And so much of Persian Empire building is about revenue and revenue raising. 104 00:10:02,030 --> 00:10:09,530 And so it's trying to get they're trying to push beyond that in order to make sure that that that border becomes quite solid, 105 00:10:09,770 --> 00:10:13,909 which, of course, it becomes completely destabilised by the Persian wars. 106 00:10:13,910 --> 00:10:22,129 And it's not until the fourth century that they find a different way to reintegrate the Ionian, 107 00:10:22,130 --> 00:10:25,790 today's German or the Greeks of Asia minor back into the Persian Empire. 108 00:10:26,180 --> 00:10:33,020 Well, we're left with a bit of a mystery on the Persians side that but we can maybe make some educated guesses and thoughts. 109 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:39,770 Can we also just think when we think about sources, about archaeology and apocrypha so we can go to the battle sites? 110 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:48,610 Of course, if you go to Marathon, you can see the the memorial team for the one nine to Athenians that we're told by her oldest has died there. 111 00:10:48,860 --> 00:10:58,339 And you can go to small planes as well. What can archaeology or apocrypha inscriptions tell us about this invasion in 44? 112 00:10:58,340 --> 00:11:03,680 Some will, of course. There's the The Serpent column, which is now in Istanbul. 113 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:12,230 It was Delphi. It was the victory dedication after the Persian Wars, which has the names of the Greek states that took part. 114 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:17,840 And that in itself is very interesting because it's such a small number. There are only 31 on there. 115 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:26,090 So it provides a sort of a counter story to the story that we have of Greek unity in resistance. 116 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,170 So it wasn't quite as unified as it seemed. Yeah, we're going to come on and talk about that. 117 00:11:30,170 --> 00:11:33,650 But just to say for our students that that is a prescribed source that's often common. 118 00:11:34,070 --> 00:11:42,110 And it's very interesting indeed and tells us quite a lot about the who's fighting and in what order perhaps. 119 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:46,700 Okay. And archaeology role. Is there anything we could talk about there? 120 00:11:47,390 --> 00:11:53,660 Well, I mean, it's kind of annoying that battlefield archaeology in the Greek world is relatively underdeveloped. 121 00:11:53,660 --> 00:11:56,569 It hasn't been done very much. And there are some reasons for that. 122 00:11:56,570 --> 00:12:02,330 I mean, partly because it's it's often difficult to determine exactly where conflicts took place. 123 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:08,060 And sometimes, as in the case of Thermopylae and we know where it happened, we are very certain of that. 124 00:12:08,300 --> 00:12:14,840 But it's buried under seven kilometres of the central deposit from the mountain falling into the sea. 125 00:12:15,290 --> 00:12:19,220 So basically it's very, very difficult to find anything in that. 126 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:25,580 And so a lot of those a lot of those traces are either gone or have never been fully found in detail. 127 00:12:25,790 --> 00:12:32,419 So you have the mound on the battlefield of Marathon, which helps us to both locate that battle and to find, 128 00:12:32,420 --> 00:12:34,850 you know, there are Persian arrowheads in that mountains. 129 00:12:34,860 --> 00:12:39,740 For instance, there are physical remains in that mound, but beyond that, there isn't all that much. 130 00:12:39,750 --> 00:12:43,620 And in terms of, for instance, Persian equipment, there is almost nothing found, to my knowledge, 131 00:12:43,620 --> 00:12:48,269 in the Greek context for the parallels of the kind of things that Herodotus describes. 132 00:12:48,270 --> 00:12:51,720 We actually have to go into the Persian heartland to find those items. 133 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:56,549 And in terms of the Greeks themselves, we only have like a few of these dedications, like the Serbian columns. 134 00:12:56,550 --> 00:13:02,550 So for instance, there is a helmet inscribed with the name of Miltiades deposited in Olympia, but it's a Greek helmet. 135 00:13:02,790 --> 00:13:05,220 So you're also kind of like, What do we do with this? 136 00:13:05,700 --> 00:13:10,230 So maybe it's his own helmet, or maybe it's the helmets of the Greeks fighting on the Persian side. 137 00:13:10,260 --> 00:13:17,850 The upshot of all this is fundamentally, although there are a lot of little interesting bits here and there, they don't help us to rewrite this story. 138 00:13:18,270 --> 00:13:24,500 Okay. So that's where the students are now getting a real sense of the challenge that they have in trying to work out these reasons. 139 00:13:24,510 --> 00:13:28,290 But again, that's good from an ancient historian point of view to be aware of that. 140 00:13:29,130 --> 00:13:32,280 And before we finish our survey of the sources, 141 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:41,489 I think another element that I'd want to introduce here is the idea of the debate in the Greek world and the competition in the Greek world after 479, 142 00:13:41,490 --> 00:13:47,459 after the victory for who gets the most credit for the victory, and particularly Athens and Sparta, 143 00:13:47,460 --> 00:13:55,020 are arguing about their services, their politics, develop the other cities as well, and that sort of infects the sources. 144 00:13:55,050 --> 00:13:59,220 So one example I can think of, which is a prescribed source in Herodotus book, 145 00:13:59,220 --> 00:14:05,129 894 during the Battle of Salamis, Herodotus tells us that the Corinthians at the battle, 146 00:14:05,130 --> 00:14:12,360 according to the Athenians, they sail away in cowardice, and they're scared back, I think, by some phantom who scares them back into battle. 147 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:17,190 And he writes at length about this and then just says, Well, actually, that's the Athenian story. 148 00:14:17,190 --> 00:14:22,440 And the rest of the Greeks say that the Corinthians fought really well. So we can see from there. 149 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,580 And also he said it is '73 to 4. 150 00:14:25,590 --> 00:14:32,160 So saying prescribed, I think when the Athenians are justifying their empire in just before the outbreak of the Peloponnesian War, 151 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:37,979 and they're saying they're saying how much they did to save the Greeks during the Persian Wall. 152 00:14:37,980 --> 00:14:44,170 So this whole debate is going on through the century and that also presumably infects our sources. 153 00:14:44,190 --> 00:14:52,409 Is that right, Lynnette? Yes, it's one of the more interesting things about the Greeks is that just how competitive they are but can't quite remember. 154 00:14:52,410 --> 00:14:59,340 But I think it's the Nations who claim that they did the best at Salamis, which itself is a sort of an interesting thing. 155 00:14:59,670 --> 00:15:04,980 But it's it's the whole competition between Athens and Sparta. 156 00:15:05,100 --> 00:15:08,940 It emerges as a result of the Persian wars. 157 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:14,490 The Athenians probably weren't that important in the Greek world until the Persian wars, 158 00:15:14,940 --> 00:15:24,000 but then they claim that giving up Athens and allowing Athens to be burned by the Persians gives them a special place in history. 159 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:30,599 And, you know, it becomes part of their own storytelling about their relationship with the Spartans, 160 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,450 which sort of dominates the second half of the fifth century. 161 00:15:33,780 --> 00:15:38,669 And, you know, where the real competition is, you know, which is the most important city, 162 00:15:38,670 --> 00:15:45,270 because up until that point it had been Sparta, hands down, but then Athens, 163 00:15:45,510 --> 00:15:49,920 with their empire behind them, which they sort of inherit after the Persian wars, 164 00:15:50,190 --> 00:15:56,430 then starts to say, Well, actually, we can now make a claim to be the most important one. 165 00:15:56,790 --> 00:16:02,129 And one of the reasons why we're the most important one is because we actually gave up Athens. 166 00:16:02,130 --> 00:16:07,290 We gave up our city for the salvation of Greece in particular. 167 00:16:07,290 --> 00:16:13,350 So that gives them as well as being greater, they think by then than the Spartans. 168 00:16:13,650 --> 00:16:19,710 They've actually got the pre-eminent position because they were actually prepared to their own city be destroyed. 169 00:16:19,890 --> 00:16:24,960 Whereas the Spartans have a much more ambivalent attitude to the whole thing, 170 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:32,760 particularly as we see it through Herodotus actually that the Spartans to a certain extent only end up 171 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,730 continuing with the war almost by accident because they keep wanting to withdraw and keep themselves safe. 172 00:16:37,980 --> 00:16:44,070 With the Athenian narrative is we allowed our city to be destroyed for the sake of the whole Greek world. 173 00:16:45,620 --> 00:16:46,170 That's interesting. 174 00:16:46,190 --> 00:16:51,300 I'm going to speak up a bit for the Spartans though, because I think even Herodotus, he might sometimes be seen as a bit more pro Athenian. 175 00:16:51,830 --> 00:16:56,600 I think he says in Book nine that it was at Plataea, the last battle. 176 00:16:56,630 --> 00:17:02,320 The definitive line it's the Spartans won it. Essentially he said I think quite used those words. 177 00:17:02,330 --> 00:17:06,860 But he said it was a Spartan led victory. And also that Serpent column. 178 00:17:07,490 --> 00:17:12,319 It's interesting looking at the order of the names and I think number one is Lacedaemonians, the Spartans, 179 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:15,470 number two is Athenians and number three is Corinthian. 180 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:23,960 So. Well, can we read something into that, that the Spartans are also keen to be seen as the top dog in the Persian Wars? 181 00:17:24,620 --> 00:17:26,839 I mean, they certainly are. And to some extent it's acknowledged. 182 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:32,419 Even the Athenians, I mean Aeschylus, the entire play, the Persians, is glorifying the victory at Salamis. 183 00:17:32,420 --> 00:17:40,340 But it also looks ahead to the victory at Plataea, which is specifically credited to the Dorian Spear, which is to say Spartan hoplites. 184 00:17:40,700 --> 00:17:47,359 So there is an extent to which even the Athenians are ready to concede, like, yeah, on land we play second fiddle to the Spartans. 185 00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:55,470 It's just that they're starting to develop this consciousness that a) on the sea, there's no one who can match us and b) the sea. 186 00:17:55,490 --> 00:18:01,790 It was a the naval campaigns were very, very important element here, possibly as Herodotus likes to accept, 187 00:18:02,100 --> 00:18:06,770 and he accepts their argument that it was the decisive site of the campaign. 188 00:18:07,250 --> 00:18:11,360 And so they are sort of trying to work out a way that they can press their claim. 189 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,850 But at the same time, I mean, what this column also expresses by that inscription, 190 00:18:16,850 --> 00:18:20,419 because that inscription is the replacement of the original inscription in which 191 00:18:20,420 --> 00:18:25,489 the Spartan commander Pausanias pressed his claim to be the sole victor of Plataea, 192 00:18:25,490 --> 00:18:31,879 and he claimed all that glory for himself. And that's when the Spartans actually themselves called him back and said, You can't do that. 193 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,880 That's not you know, that's not how we do things here. 194 00:18:35,540 --> 00:18:41,150 And so, you know, even over that single monument, there was already a contest over whose glory it really is. 195 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:48,050 And undoubtedly the order of the names was was lobbied and fought over by each of these states involved. 196 00:18:48,380 --> 00:18:54,260 And I would guess the Corinthians probably get their position from having the largest number of hoplites after the Athenians and Spartans, 197 00:18:54,830 --> 00:18:56,900 but there are all sorts of other factors involved. 198 00:18:56,930 --> 00:19:01,790 And in fact, you can see from around Herodotus that little stories about all these other states also trying to, 199 00:19:01,970 --> 00:19:05,540 you know, to raise their profile, but also like pushing that they did a part of it. 200 00:19:05,540 --> 00:19:07,100 You know, they had a role. 201 00:19:07,850 --> 00:19:15,050 And he says some even set up monuments and built tombs, even though they weren't there because they wanted to to claim that they were part of it, 202 00:19:15,500 --> 00:19:19,730 you know, because there was so much glory to be had and it was so important to be part of that story. 203 00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:25,579 So how much harder does that make it for us to to reconstruct what happens as historians 204 00:19:25,580 --> 00:19:29,160 is that it just adds another layer of complexity that we need to be aware of. 205 00:19:29,180 --> 00:19:33,739 Would that be right? I think that's pretty much true with with Greek history generally, 206 00:19:33,740 --> 00:19:40,760 that you've always got to take into account the fact that they were intensely competitive and that they 207 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,850 they wanted to see their own history sort of played out within that competition and sort of that. 208 00:19:46,100 --> 00:19:50,060 And the zero sum game, if somebody's coming out and being the absolute winner, 209 00:19:50,420 --> 00:19:56,570 was just such an important part of the way that they thought about themselves and as a community, 210 00:19:56,870 --> 00:20:05,030 that that is part of the you know, it's the counter drive to the drive to be a single community was that they were also 211 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,510 saw themselves as lots of little communities who were competing against each other. 212 00:20:09,260 --> 00:20:13,510 Okay. Well, we've set the scene as this has been really helpful and very, very interesting. 213 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:21,739 I want briefly before we think in more detail about some of the possible reasons for why the Greeks come in for 1849, 214 00:20:21,740 --> 00:20:31,520 just to touch on the years 492 419 because actually we had not one but two campaigns that we have the 492 campaign. 215 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:37,370 Yes. Which goes up into the northern Aegean, although I think Herodotus says the objective was ultimately Athens, 216 00:20:37,700 --> 00:20:44,660 because Darius is furious with Athens because they sided with the ionians and the revolts in four, nine, nine and onwards. 217 00:20:45,260 --> 00:20:50,450 And that 492 is is a it depends how you see it, whether how successful that is. 218 00:20:50,450 --> 00:20:54,710 They, they conquered some more territory probably, but then have a shipwreck. 219 00:20:55,040 --> 00:21:00,109 And then we have the 490 campaign, which seems to be sort of doing the same thing. 220 00:21:00,110 --> 00:21:08,149 But they come across the middle of the Aegean, they take Naxos, they take Eretria, but they don't take Athens, which is the next plan. 221 00:21:08,150 --> 00:21:11,629 So we'll just talk just a little bit about Darius. 222 00:21:11,630 --> 00:21:19,459 Obviously, he dies in 486. So what is he trying to do and put the cases for defence for him? 223 00:21:19,460 --> 00:21:22,910 What how might he say. Well actually it all went pretty well in these years. 224 00:21:24,100 --> 00:21:28,670 Well, first of all, I mean, these campaigns are often interpreted as just continuing where you left off. 225 00:21:28,690 --> 00:21:36,610 So the Ionian revolt happened in the four nineties. That takes about five or six years to be quelled, which the Persians do successfully. 226 00:21:36,940 --> 00:21:42,310 And then the king basically sends his cousin Mardonius, as his also brother in law. 227 00:21:42,340 --> 00:21:45,400 I think they're sort of intricately related, these families. 228 00:21:45,660 --> 00:21:51,520 They're very close. So he's a very, very prominent man. Mardonius sends him to the coast to reassess the tributes, 229 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:57,760 to rearrange the the ordering of Asia minor for the benefit of the Persians to stabilise the region. 230 00:21:58,090 --> 00:22:05,020 And then he just continues westward with an army and a fleet to try and re-establish the Persian Authority further and further west. 231 00:22:05,500 --> 00:22:11,200 And so you can very easily see that as just, you know, okay, well, we had this revolt, but thankfully that's all behind us now. 232 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:17,049 And so we can we can continue our expansion. But you can also read when you read Herodotus' account of the Ionian Revolt. 233 00:22:17,050 --> 00:22:22,450 I mean, it's very clear that there are connections across that sea, you know, people who are involved in that revolt, 234 00:22:22,450 --> 00:22:27,970 who fleet it thrice, or fleets of accursed these or make alliances with Greek states, Eretria and Athens. 235 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:37,629 And so for the Persians, it becomes clear that you probably can't really rule that area if you don't extend your control beyond the Aegean. 236 00:22:37,630 --> 00:22:39,040 And this is what Lynette said earlier. 237 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:46,150 I mean, if you want to stabilise Western Asia minor, you kind of have to campaign further west and you have to go beyond it. 238 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:48,480 And so that's probably what they were doing. 239 00:22:48,490 --> 00:22:56,979 You know, they're picking up things that they had already intended to do, like attacking Naxos, which is a campaign they tried in 500 and, you know, 240 00:22:56,980 --> 00:23:03,549 attacking those states that had been in touch with and have collaborated with the Ionian Rebels in order to try and, 241 00:23:03,550 --> 00:23:08,050 you know, assert Persian Persian domination and extend that control further and further. 242 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,460 So how would Darius explain away marathon? 243 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:19,799 So the campaign of Marathon is a very, very successful campaign in terms of its its course through the Aegean. 244 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:25,440 The Persians subject numerous islands, including very large and wealthy communities like Naxos. 245 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,520 They attacked the island of Nubia, on which there is the city of Eretria. 246 00:23:29,820 --> 00:23:36,110 They have to besiege it, they assault it, and they take it and raise it to the ground, which is a very successful operation. 247 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:41,310 This isn't easy stuff. This is something that that it takes a very strong and sustained military effort. 248 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:43,230 But they managed to pull it off. 249 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:49,920 And at the end of all that, when basically all the islands between the Asian coast and the Greek mainland have been subdued, 250 00:23:50,250 --> 00:23:52,900 then they briefly invade Attica. 251 00:23:52,920 --> 00:24:00,270 So the territory of Athens, at which point they face off against an Athenian army which unexpectedly wins that battle. 252 00:24:00,810 --> 00:24:04,220 But of course, at that point, it doesn't reverse the gains they've already made. 253 00:24:04,230 --> 00:24:08,030 So it's not like because they were defeated, that marathon, they have to withdraw, 254 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,700 they have to flee back to Asia and say, oh, well, that was a wholesale failure. 255 00:24:11,970 --> 00:24:17,990 Rather, they just you know, they tried to stretch. They tried to attain the stretch goal, if you will, and they couldn't. 256 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,420 They just fell short of that. But they retained all the other gains that they made. 257 00:24:21,660 --> 00:24:24,569 And so all those islands would prove a perfect stepping stone, 258 00:24:24,570 --> 00:24:30,360 would provide for their allies and tribute would provide parts of the fleet that Xerxes would later deploy against the Greeks. 259 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:36,240 So there's there is a lot of gains that were made that that the defeat of marathon did not undo. 260 00:24:37,030 --> 00:24:42,210 Okay. That's interesting. So, yeah, that's not the version we get from Herodotus although we can read it from that. 261 00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:52,600 Well, if we just stay with you for that the next bit as well, because let's come down to Darius dies in four, eight, six. 262 00:24:52,620 --> 00:24:59,520 We get a very brief mention in terms of two rebellions that happened, one in the heartland or any of the empire of Babylon, 263 00:25:00,030 --> 00:25:05,160 and then one in Egypt, which is a crucial economic part of the empire. 264 00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:10,500 Herodotus hardly mentions these revolts apart from the fact they happened and they have to be quelled. 265 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:15,900 And then he comes on to talk about the preparations for the Greek invasion. 266 00:25:15,900 --> 00:25:20,320 So what is xerxes doing with relation to Darius? 267 00:25:20,340 --> 00:25:26,520 Is it just one more push? Seems to be a bigger, we're told by Herodotus it's a bigger, much bigger expedition. 268 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,760 We know that Xerxes accompanies it and Darius doesn't. 269 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:34,770 So I guess with relation to Babylon, to Egypt and then to Greece. 270 00:25:34,770 --> 00:25:38,719 What's Xerxes Masterplan here? Right. 271 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:45,950 So, I mean, the Persian king always has this obligation to ensure that all the areas that were once under control of the Persians have to remain. 272 00:25:46,290 --> 00:25:49,250 So obviously, any rebellion sort of prompts immediate action, 273 00:25:49,730 --> 00:25:55,160 but also Xerxes more generally profiles himself in his inscriptions as the continuity candidate. 274 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,100 He was not the eldest son of Darius. 275 00:25:57,110 --> 00:26:04,669 He was not perhaps the most deserving of being the heir, except for the fact that his mother was was also the daughter of Cyrus. 276 00:26:04,670 --> 00:26:07,700 So there is a very strong reason why Darius picked him. 277 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:13,969 But Xerxes still felt that he needed to justify and legitimise the fact that he was the heir and not any of his. 278 00:26:13,970 --> 00:26:20,040 And at least three other brothers, I think. And so there was a question there, like, okay, how do you justify that? 279 00:26:20,060 --> 00:26:23,300 Well, he presents himself as saying everything my father did. 280 00:26:23,330 --> 00:26:26,959 I will finish it right. I am going to complete these projects. 281 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:31,880 I'm going to make sure that there is no perception of a break between my father and me. 282 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:38,720 Everything is going to keep on going from great to even greater because I'm going to to complete all of these separate projects. 283 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:45,860 So these are construction projects. These are individual monuments where Xerxes would just add his own lines to what Darius had done. 284 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:52,820 And they obviously include things like wars against Greeks, because this is something that Darius had done that had been left undone. 285 00:26:53,180 --> 00:26:58,670 And so Xerxes must go and assert that whatever his father had tried to do, he would complete it. 286 00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:04,759 And so that's very likely to be one of the reasons why he felt compelled to go against Greece and 287 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:10,309 this time to go in full force to essentially establish that this was his great claim to legitimacy, 288 00:27:10,310 --> 00:27:14,630 as well as his his attempt to finally achieve what his father tried to achieve. 289 00:27:16,330 --> 00:27:21,580 And it's the case, isn't it, that each new emperor sort of needs to have a new a new gain? 290 00:27:21,610 --> 00:27:24,669 I mean, our students will be doing the first five Roman emperors, 291 00:27:24,670 --> 00:27:29,430 and they'll study Claudius conquering Britain because he needs to have something on his CV. 292 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,280 And do you think there's an element of that going on? Possesses. Yeah. 293 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:38,499 I mean, the Persian Kings can easily be fit into this earlier Near Eastern tradition as well, 294 00:27:38,500 --> 00:27:41,740 where rulers who just come to the throne, they need to conquer something. 295 00:27:41,950 --> 00:27:47,650 This is a way of legitimising themselves by proving that they are successful warriors and conquerors. 296 00:27:48,070 --> 00:27:52,770 And so there is pressure on every new king to go and lead the army somewhere. 297 00:27:52,810 --> 00:27:56,530 It doesn't really matter where it is and go and fight someone and subdue them, 298 00:27:56,530 --> 00:28:01,960 or at least obtain some tokens of submission so that you can go home and say, Look, I achieved this. 299 00:28:02,290 --> 00:28:06,909 These new peoples have been added to the Empire, etc. Now this starts after Xerxes. 300 00:28:06,910 --> 00:28:09,940 It starts to become a less important driver for Persian action. 301 00:28:09,940 --> 00:28:14,650 Or at least they stopped doing this. Essentially, they stopped trying to expand the empire further. 302 00:28:15,100 --> 00:28:24,010 But at least until Xerxes, we can see every successive Persian king tries to lead these huge campaigns against enemies further and further afield, 303 00:28:24,730 --> 00:28:29,680 and especially early in the reign that very clearly has a sort of legitimising function. 304 00:28:30,850 --> 00:28:39,190 Okay. Well, thank you. That's really useful to think about Xerxes perspective there so that if we we come across to you, we hear, 305 00:28:39,580 --> 00:28:43,930 well, people who don't know much about the Persian Wars might think it's the Greeks against the Persians. 306 00:28:44,380 --> 00:28:49,420 But we need to be really careful about this, don't we? Because there's probably more Greeks fighting on the Persian side. 307 00:28:49,930 --> 00:28:55,360 And as we've already said, I think there are only 31 states named on the Serpent column. 308 00:28:55,370 --> 00:29:01,210 So to what extent does the Greek world unite to combat the Persians here? 309 00:29:02,020 --> 00:29:07,330 It's a very mixed picture. There are some Greek states who do. 310 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:12,850 Athens and Sparta, of course. And we've talked about Corinth and there is other places. 311 00:29:12,850 --> 00:29:23,679 But then there are some really notable exceptions. Argos, for example, doesn't take part at all, and Delphi seems to be determined that xerxes, 312 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:29,110 must win, and so discourages people like the Cretans from taking part. 313 00:29:29,470 --> 00:29:32,860 So it isn't a very united Greek world. 314 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:38,019 There are some people who think that actually that it may not be a bad thing. 315 00:29:38,020 --> 00:29:42,879 And there are some people who get pushed into it the Thessalians seem to originally 316 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:47,650 to have thought that they were prepared to be part of the resistance effort. 317 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:58,329 But once the Greeks decided the rest of the Greeks who joined together in a council and created the Hellenic League against the Persians, 318 00:29:58,330 --> 00:30:06,640 once they decided that they couldn't defend that, the thessalians simply went over to the other side. 319 00:30:07,330 --> 00:30:07,840 And of course, 320 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:19,330 there's always the story that it becomes notorious about the Thebans who are said to have medeised in relation to the campaign Thermopylae. 321 00:30:19,870 --> 00:30:25,660 So it's one of the things that the Greeks don't do is unite. 322 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:30,220 However, they have a story of uniting. And again, it's part of their. 323 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:36,190 It's one of the counter narratives that they want to tell is that they did unite against the Persians. 324 00:30:36,490 --> 00:30:44,260 But the actual fact of it was that it was very fragmented and made it all the more surprising that they actually did win because they were 325 00:30:44,260 --> 00:30:53,980 so fragmented and there was so few Greek states who were actually prepared to put themselves on the line and join this resistance movement. 326 00:30:54,670 --> 00:30:57,069 I think isn't there a story in Herodotus, 327 00:30:57,070 --> 00:31:04,210 that he says that the Phocians only joined the loyalist Greek side in the league because the Sicilians went the other way? 328 00:31:04,540 --> 00:31:10,299 And it was much more about one upmanship in the Greek world in terms of who you sided with. 329 00:31:10,300 --> 00:31:15,270 And maybe Argos, obviously a bitter rival of Sparta and probably thinks, you know what, 330 00:31:15,510 --> 00:31:20,690 if the Persians come in, we can work with them quite nicely and we can be top dog in the Peloponnese. 331 00:31:20,710 --> 00:31:24,310 So is there something like that going on quite a lot? Oh, absolutely. 332 00:31:24,310 --> 00:31:32,799 Because we're back to this this question of competition and the tension between Argos and Sparta in the Peloponnese is one of very longstanding, 333 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,090 and it's an issue that continues on even after the Persian wars, 334 00:31:37,090 --> 00:31:44,740 that it's interesting that the Argos never get accused really of dancing in the way that the Thebans do. 335 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,850 And perhaps because they didn't actively do anything, they just didn't do anything. 336 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,120 It just didn't take part. But it's a little bit like Delphi. 337 00:31:52,150 --> 00:31:58,660 Delphi clearly thinks that if they advised against the Greeks in the sense that they assume that the Persians will win, 338 00:31:58,670 --> 00:32:01,780 that that actually that will benefit them in the long run, 339 00:32:01,930 --> 00:32:10,600 because presumably they think that the Persians will then be favourable to them when the inevitable Persian victory happens. 340 00:32:10,630 --> 00:32:15,250 But of course it doesn't. And then they have to excuse the fact that they went the other way, 341 00:32:15,250 --> 00:32:19,960 that they sort of in the competition, you know, choosing the side, they chose the wrong side. 342 00:32:20,170 --> 00:32:28,459 And so they had to wiggle their way out of that one. So I think what's important then is that this idea that Herodotus wants us to 343 00:32:28,460 --> 00:32:33,590 think about is it's all about ideology and fighting for freedom and Greek myths. 344 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:40,520 We should be really sceptical of, shouldn't we? Because actually it's all about what's going to be best for my community. 345 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:47,420 And if having Persian overlordship is what's going to be best, then the Greeks will go for it or Greek cities will go for that. 346 00:32:47,540 --> 00:32:56,460 Is that correct? It is. But it is still true that the Greeks have to party, they set up an altar, etc., to say that this was all about Greek freedom. 347 00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:00,860 This was common to help us and that we were fighting for freedom. 348 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:07,670 So it's not just Herodotus. Herodotus is just replaying a rhetoric which is already being talked about, 349 00:33:08,390 --> 00:33:13,820 and it becomes the way very quickly that the Greeks want to present this war. 350 00:33:14,060 --> 00:33:17,060 So it's Herodotus actually elaborates. 351 00:33:17,510 --> 00:33:22,999 What's really interesting about Herodotus is that he does have all this talk of freedom and fighting for freedom, 352 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:30,829 but he also shows us that it wasn't like that and he doesn't go out of his way to make that point. 353 00:33:30,830 --> 00:33:36,170 But he he makes it very clear that the Argives aren't taking part and that Gelon in 354 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:41,749 Syracuse is just not really interested unless he gets to run the show and things like that. 355 00:33:41,750 --> 00:33:49,550 So that's what, in a sense makes Herodotus so interesting and so much fun on all of this is that he's aware of these two different 356 00:33:49,820 --> 00:33:57,340 narratives and he's prepared to play with both of them and show that there is a tension that's going on there. 357 00:33:57,380 --> 00:34:07,490 I mean, that's part of the skill, the fact that he's able to he's able to have these two separate and contradictory narratives running, 358 00:34:07,550 --> 00:34:11,810 but still as part of his storytelling about the war altogether. 359 00:34:12,590 --> 00:34:16,219 Well, before we come through and look at a set of possible reasons, 360 00:34:16,220 --> 00:34:23,150 I just want to delve into something which is very problematic, which is the numbers, the horrendous escapes. 361 00:34:23,390 --> 00:34:32,070 And let's you go on the Greek side, first of all, because I think he's probably we can trust him much more when he gives his Greek them than, 362 00:34:32,090 --> 00:34:38,900 say, perhaps the most famous set of numbers he gives us is he gives the list of Greeks who fought to Plataea. 363 00:34:39,290 --> 00:34:47,330 And I think it comes out at 38,700 hoplites fighting and then I think the same number of light armed troops. 364 00:34:47,750 --> 00:34:53,090 So students you can remember, if you can remember just under 40,000 or around 40,000. 365 00:34:53,090 --> 00:34:56,209 Hoplites Are those sorts of figures accurate? 366 00:34:56,210 --> 00:35:02,090 And then they're also the number of ships that he gives, which is usually between about three and 400 in the sea battles on the Greek side. 367 00:35:02,330 --> 00:35:06,680 So on the Greek side, do we think his numbers rule a pretty good. 368 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,790 Yeah. I think I mean, at least in terms of the number of rooms and the whole place, 369 00:35:12,790 --> 00:35:20,049 those numbers are usually considered fairly reliable because they correspond with the numbers that we get in other campaigns. 370 00:35:20,050 --> 00:35:27,160 So we know that they are roughly correct for the numbers of troops that the cities that are supposed to have mustered them could have mustered. 371 00:35:27,580 --> 00:35:31,840 So there is there's good reason to believe that those numbers are reasonably accurate and also 372 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:37,060 that the alliance that was brought out to fight the battle could have mustered if they tried to, 373 00:35:37,090 --> 00:35:43,420 you know, turnouts as they're supposed to have done with their full levee or something close to it, that they could well have mustered those numbers. 374 00:35:44,170 --> 00:35:50,980 And so, for instance, you know, Athens having 8000 or, you know, all these other these other numbers are reasonably reliable, 375 00:35:50,990 --> 00:35:57,100 even if we had no reason to assume that they were based on some kind of documentation. 376 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:05,169 And it is possible that they were, because this, at least for the Athenians, recruitment of the hoplite levy goes by something called the list, 377 00:36:05,170 --> 00:36:12,610 which is essentially like a locally maintained register of citizens over 18 who can afford the armour that you need for this. 378 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,600 So there is and we don't know if this exists on paper, so to speak, 379 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:22,059 but we know that there was some understanding of how many people there were in each diem, 380 00:36:22,060 --> 00:36:26,139 you know, in each administrative district who were liable for this kind of service. 381 00:36:26,140 --> 00:36:32,320 And if that's the case, then you can do your your your math and establish how many supplies there would have been. 382 00:36:32,620 --> 00:36:38,880 So Herodotus would have been able to find this out either by extrapolating from the numbers that you knew or simply by asking, 383 00:36:38,890 --> 00:36:42,870 okay, well, what orders did you get? You know, how many people did you call up? 384 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,420 Because that would have been a central decision and people would have had some kind of memory of them. 385 00:36:47,470 --> 00:36:52,990 And in terms of ships, it's a similar story. I mean, or it's these numbers are all sort of ballpark. 386 00:36:52,990 --> 00:36:53,200 You know, 387 00:36:53,200 --> 00:37:00,310 they're orders of magnitude that are correct for the kinds of fleets that are later mustered by these states or other states in the same area. 388 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,130 So those are those are fairly dependable numbers. 389 00:37:03,700 --> 00:37:09,819 The only question that we have with this is numbers for the Battle of Plataea is whether his light army troops are accurate. 390 00:37:09,820 --> 00:37:18,040 And the problem is with those is that they often weren't counted. It's just a sense of like if you are if you can't afford to own hoplite equipment, 391 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,610 if you're if you don't have enough money essentially to buy yourself a shield and spear, 392 00:37:22,030 --> 00:37:25,960 then you are you are going to turn up for the army with whatever you can carry. 393 00:37:26,260 --> 00:37:31,930 And there is much less significance to your presence because these are poorly organised and relatively ineffective troops. 394 00:37:32,170 --> 00:37:34,329 And that means that very often they're just not counted. 395 00:37:34,330 --> 00:37:41,950 So there's just a huge number of these two of these people around whose numbers are not of interest to people who are making these kinds of records. 396 00:37:42,790 --> 00:37:49,329 Herodotus does a very simple math somewhere. He just says, Well, there's just one body servant essentially for every hoplite. 397 00:37:49,330 --> 00:37:54,250 There's one assistant there who cooks his food, and in the battle they will fight as longtime troops. 398 00:37:54,550 --> 00:38:00,760 And so that's my numbers. I'm just going to multiply by two, and then I'm going to have the total, which is obviously very rough and ready. 399 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:05,110 It may well be a ballpark figure. It may well be correct, but that's that's just a sort of rough estimate. 400 00:38:05,410 --> 00:38:10,600 And then he adds that the Spartans each have seven helmets with them, and that's a number that, 401 00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:13,870 you know, arouses in this debate, because could there possibly be so many? 402 00:38:13,870 --> 00:38:17,679 Why did they bring them all? What are the what is the use for them? What were they doing in the battle? 403 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:18,249 We don't know. 404 00:38:18,250 --> 00:38:26,049 But there are supposed to be 35,000 Helots at the battle here, and that's the number that arouses the most suspicion of any of them, 405 00:38:26,050 --> 00:38:30,910 because it's just it's just a big question of where they're coming from, why they're there, what they do. 406 00:38:30,910 --> 00:38:34,000 You know, we know very little about this. Okay. Thank you. 407 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:39,700 And I think is it worth saying that that figure of about 40,000 hoplites, 408 00:38:39,700 --> 00:38:46,929 which we can think is fairly trustworthy in terms of Greek history, that is a huge number of Greeks to be on the battlefield. 409 00:38:46,930 --> 00:38:52,419 At the same time, it's possibly the largest ethnic gathering of Greeks in one place in known history. 410 00:38:52,420 --> 00:38:56,729 So, I mean, it is a very significant number, isn't it? Yes. 411 00:38:56,730 --> 00:39:02,160 So that number is enormous because Greek alliances, although the Greeks often went to war as a coalition, 412 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:06,989 you know, several states working together, they are rarely any coalitions that are this big. 413 00:39:06,990 --> 00:39:09,569 For instance, including both Athens and Sparta. 414 00:39:09,570 --> 00:39:15,990 And Sparta at this point is still the largest state in terms of the number of hoplites, which later goes down very quickly. 415 00:39:16,410 --> 00:39:22,080 So this is a huge, huge number. And in terms of hoplites, this is the largest number that's ever gathered for a single battle. 416 00:39:22,590 --> 00:39:24,510 And this becomes, you know, as we'll see later on. 417 00:39:24,510 --> 00:39:31,200 But this becomes a huge factor in the battle of plataea, because this army is vast and it's certainly the largest that any Greek has ever seen, 418 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:35,340 let alone command it, which causes its own problems, logistic and tactical. 419 00:39:35,790 --> 00:39:41,400 But it also means that in terms of confronting the Persian Army, that's that's invaded the Greek mainland, 420 00:39:41,670 --> 00:39:48,149 this is a serious tool like this is this will do it, you know, I mean, that's the big thing. 421 00:39:48,150 --> 00:39:57,030 If we are to believe these numbers, then this is an army that legitimately potentially outnumbers the invaders because it is just that large. 422 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,870 Yeah. And therefore, it's worth saying, on the one hand, we might say, well, 423 00:40:00,870 --> 00:40:05,370 it's only 31 states who come together and this isn't all of Greece by any means, 424 00:40:05,700 --> 00:40:10,740 but on the other hand, they do raise this huge force and they do deserve a lot of respect for that. 425 00:40:12,510 --> 00:40:15,500 Well. So this is the great advantage that the Greek states have, right? 426 00:40:15,510 --> 00:40:20,460 So the way that they organise their armies is they just call up the whole population when there's an emergency. 427 00:40:20,910 --> 00:40:26,819 And that means usually that even though your army is going to be relatively poorly organised and ill prepared, 428 00:40:26,820 --> 00:40:30,270 I mean, they receive no training, they receive no equipment from the state or anything. 429 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:34,080 They're just guys who have their own equipments and come to battle with it. 430 00:40:34,380 --> 00:40:40,350 But you can get a lot of them. And that is very much what you see a flotilla is that if you try and do that in earnest, 431 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,280 you can get, you know, every single city, turns out thousands of men, 432 00:40:44,310 --> 00:40:51,450 you add 31 cities together and suddenly you have a vast force of these hoplites plus, you know, supporting troops and everything else. 433 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:58,650 Okay. Well, let's come across then to the Persian side, and this is where things get a little bit crazy. 434 00:40:58,980 --> 00:41:05,160 I think Herodotus says we have in the whole campaign March 5.2 million, 435 00:41:05,580 --> 00:41:11,080 some early scholar worked out if that was true and they were all marching crocodile style from Susa, 436 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:16,320 then the first person arriving in Greece would be arriving in Greece when the last person was leaving Susa. 437 00:41:16,770 --> 00:41:28,560 So we can discount 5.2 million. And then on the ship side, we're told 1207, 207, which sounds eerily familiar to Homer's Iliad. 438 00:41:28,770 --> 00:41:32,069 So what do we do with these numbers? 439 00:41:32,070 --> 00:41:38,100 Do we just discount them? Is there any way of trying to make them work? And how do we work out the Persian numbers? 440 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:45,960 Yes. So this is one of the big questions when it comes to reconstructing the Persian wars, because, I mean, no one really believes those numbers. 441 00:41:45,970 --> 00:41:51,760 And Roberts is we know that they're practically impossible, not just for the amount of space they would take up, the amount of food they would eat. 442 00:41:52,330 --> 00:41:57,220 And Horowitz's in self tells tall tales to justify this in saying they drank the rivers dry and all this. 443 00:41:57,730 --> 00:42:03,400 But he himself already says when he makes this calculation of the total that it says, 444 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:07,030 I'm not really sure I can believe this actually, because how could they feed them? 445 00:42:07,420 --> 00:42:12,969 A relative himself says that. So you have to start thinking like, Wait a minute, if you don't trust these numbers, how are we? 446 00:42:12,970 --> 00:42:17,140 Are we ever to accept them? So no one really does that. The problem is how do we get to something more real? 447 00:42:17,860 --> 00:42:25,570 And there are two things there. One is that when Herodotus tries to get to this number and tries to establish how big this Persian Army is, 448 00:42:26,050 --> 00:42:32,230 he does so in what is perhaps one of his most scientific passages, if you will, in the entire work. 449 00:42:32,230 --> 00:42:39,790 He really goes through it very carefully, listing all the numbers, listing all the different arithmetic that he's using to try and get to the total, 450 00:42:39,790 --> 00:42:46,360 including things like, again, you know, getting to 2.6 million and then doubling it to include all the servants and camp followers. 451 00:42:46,690 --> 00:42:49,240 So you can see the kind of calculations that are going on. 452 00:42:49,540 --> 00:42:56,559 And so Herodotus is almost daring you to say, like, okay, well, if you don't if you don't believe me, show me where the mistake is right. 453 00:42:56,560 --> 00:43:02,020 Show me where I'm wrong. And it's very hard for us to do that because each individual number doesn't sound that strange. 454 00:43:02,020 --> 00:43:06,250 I mean, he's talking, for instance, saying these are the number of ships, this is the number of men per ship. 455 00:43:06,490 --> 00:43:10,180 You multiply one by the other. There are 250,000 people in this fleet. 456 00:43:10,390 --> 00:43:14,180 And you're like, Well, you're not making a mistake, but that number is far too high, right? 457 00:43:14,230 --> 00:43:18,129 What do we do with that? And so the difficulty has always been like, 458 00:43:18,130 --> 00:43:23,530 what do you actually use against this other than the logic that this sheer number cannot possibly have existed? 459 00:43:24,340 --> 00:43:30,730 So there are some ways you can do this. One is to measure, for instance, the size of the camp, which he reports at the time. 460 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:35,830 If you multiply that out and see how many people can can you fit in there, you come to a much smaller number. 461 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,720 Other ways of doing this are just saying, like, 462 00:43:38,740 --> 00:43:44,709 what can you reasonably move across this terrain where very quickly you run into the use of comparative evidence? 463 00:43:44,710 --> 00:43:52,240 So you look at other empires, for instance, the Saluki empire of a later period that covered more or less the same territorial extents. 464 00:43:52,420 --> 00:43:59,290 How many people could they raise in a full sized army, other campaigns or other armies that have marched through similar territory? 465 00:43:59,290 --> 00:44:01,359 How many people can you keep alive? 466 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:09,760 Can you feed as you're marching them through this landscape on the basis of those kinds of tentative, you know, comparative pieces of evidence? 467 00:44:10,150 --> 00:44:17,470 People have reached a Persian Army number, somewhere between 80000 to 160000, maybe up on the outside. 468 00:44:17,830 --> 00:44:24,670 But that is very much speculation. We just don't have any numbers beyond the unbelievable ones that are all that this provides. 469 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,060 And is it the same sort of thing in ships as well? 470 00:44:28,540 --> 00:44:35,620 And yeah, for ships, I mean, the number is the number that he gives at 1207 is very suspect because it's a number that we also find in Aeschylus. 471 00:44:36,310 --> 00:44:43,690 But does he actually say a thousand of which 207 are fast ships, or is it a thousand plus a 207 fast ships or something? 472 00:44:43,730 --> 00:44:49,630 That indicates there's a lot of confusion there as well. And again, that cruise, the amount of food they would need, 473 00:44:49,660 --> 00:44:55,330 the impossibility of fitting them through the various straits and capes and things they have to they have to move along. 474 00:44:55,870 --> 00:45:00,160 And then the losses supposedly suffered by storms, which are also, you know, very, very high. 475 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,660 It's very it becomes very difficult to ascertain the core of that. 476 00:45:03,670 --> 00:45:09,760 But it's quite possible that we're dealing with a fleet that's actually I mean, still very large, but more comparable to the Greek ones. 477 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:16,420 So perhaps between 306 hundred warships plus innumerable, of course, supplies, ships and transports.